Thursday, February 13, 2014

On Suffering and Pain. What Does it Matter So Long As We Hurt?

It turns out it matters a lot, and the difference is essential. Because pain is curable and suffering is not. I had better explain. To be clear we must first turn suffering into pain for there to be cure. In brief, suffering is not healing; feeling pain is because pain is more specific, less diffuse and has an origin, while suffering is diffused throughout the system and is vague. We suffer when we cannot reach the cause. And that often means that the cause is so deeply buried as to be unknowable. And that can mean one of two things;
1. The pain is so great that it must remain repressed.
2. The pain is so deep and remote that it is very very difficult to reach.

When those two elements exist we have generalized suffering as the agony portion bursts through but not the origin. The imprint is still there behind it all but for now it is unattainable. Pain means connection; that is why patients hurt when they do connect—my mother never loved me. What we do to produce cure is to turn suffering into pain and then into feeling: mama, please love me.

Suffering and pain are mutually exclusive; one (pain) eliminates the other (suffering). I am not discussion chronic suffering from physical causes such as infection.

Why isn’t suffering curative? Because it remains in our head and does not reach all of us. It means that it is not connected. We are constantly miserable and never know why. Because it is in our head it stay alienated from deep causes. Once we feel deeply, over months, we can read ultimate causes. The more we try to understand our suffering the less we succeed. This is why cognitive therapy cannot succeed. It means ensconced in the intellect when what we need for cure is a deep imprint. We need the opposite: letting go of intellectual pursuits and allowing oneself to drift downward to the remote past. That is not easy and most often cannot be done without professional help. Too often, we conflate pain and suffering and that prevents us from ever finding cure. Where is cure? On a lower level of consciousness. If it were on top we could say, “Oh deal I cut myself..”

To recap: suffering happens when pain/imprint is on the rise but is still repressed and hidden. Cognitive cannot achieve cure so long as it suppresses agony without focusing on deeper imprints. They give pills, which further sequesters causes, the causes that gave rise to the suffering. They get results but it cannot last. They claim it is effective; within narrow confines it can be but it won’t endure.

Suffering and pain should not be conflated, as that assures no cure. They are not interchangeable, allowing them to be treated through ideas and insights. This amounts to thinking our way to health; that believing makes it so. Once we know that deep pain lies far below the neocortex we can focus on real causes and of course, cure.


  1. Art, I like what you wrote on the difference between suffering and pain. For me, the pain is so great that it must remain repressed. Sorry to change the topic... but...

    Are YOU a Chimera?

    Did you know that two non-identical twins can fuse together to form a single human? It is a relatively common phenomenon! This type of dual-person is called a chimera. Most chimeras will go through life without realizing they are chimeras. The difference in phenotypes may be subtle (e.g., having a hitchhiker's thumb and a straight thumb, eyes of different colors, differential hair growth on opposite sides of the body, etc.) or completely undetectable. When placed under a certain spectrum of UV light, chimeras can reveal distinctive marks on the back resembling that of arrow points pointing downwards from the shoulders down to the lower back!

    I wonder if chimeras are generally built to a higher standard as they naturally choose the best genes from two phenotypes instead of one. I wonder if a dual-brain is possible.

    1. Hello Richard!

      Suffering as need for love has no limits!

      Questions is symptoms if it fills defense against own suffering ... the cognitive activity finds meaning with whatever issues are... and life is cemented at finding answers!? Also questions whether science is... if so... but have no way to prove it self !

      Responses to suffering in a never-ending stream... as shocking us when issues no longer serves its purpose... death for suffering we fled our whole life and even at its end! What a human tragedy... what is there to keep us from finding cause... if not the cause of need of love?

      Aida said something the other day "they did not want us" as she turned to be "they do not want us" and she cried -like something no one can cry without being at their source for cause! "Us"... she with all her 9 siblings who were split in the wind at adoption!

      Your Frank.

    2. I'm not a chimera, Richard, but I do like to describe myself as a lesbian trapped inside a man's body.

    3. hmmm...

      Did you know TRUE hermaphrodites often appear to be perfectly normal? For example, they may appear to be a normal male but have ovaries in the abdomen. Their genome (entire genetic package) consists of male AND female genes. In contrast, pseudo-hermaphrodites exhibit both male and female external sex organs but their genome is normal; only one gender. They differ from true hermaphrodites in that they have a hormone imbalance -- not a genetic imbalance.

      This gets me thinking...
      If hormones generate feelings and feelings generate hormones, perhaps feelings imprinted in the unconscious can cause an imbalance in sex hormones. Let's say rage is a masculine feeling -- a feeling suited to a masculine body - a body built for fighting. Can prenatal rage encourage a female fetus to develop masculine traits?

      When my sister gets angry she juts her lower jaw well forward and she adopts a lumbering motion, making her body appear heavier than it is. I wonder if she is communicating unconsciously: "Beware, I have the power of a male."

  2. Art!

    It is the big problem... we do not know why we suffer and suffer we do because we have repressed pain! The pain reminds itself by we are suffering... symptoms from memories that need to be linked up in neocortex for consciousness!

    It is so simple!? We must "understand" that we suffer!? To doing that... as we have such a good defense... defense of a prominent position as a professor... we must ask the professor!? He must give his consent in himself for what he is doing... my put himself into the position of not beeing a professor!

    If we snatches away mat against the need to be professional... we begin to understand what it is that is going on!

    Suffering takes its shape to hold against all what pain in name of symtom called... named to "succeed" in its suffering... suffering as professional... he must now found something else of defense... if so a turbo neocortex is needed! If we're talking about an leader in the military... he can've become dangerous for all humanity!

    There is a way to give "color" to the suffering... put the right word for it... let the narrative in his own words give the tone for what otherwise can not be heard! "Mom... it hurts so much... please help me... pleeeease!

    Doing it around a very good friend... a friend who can be silent... but present is what we need! Janovs books explains in detail what is to be expected! Call the center if needed Phone: (310) 392-2003... no one else!

    There is a very good cartoon movie called "Grave of the fireflies"... watch it!

    Your Frank

  3. Time for life?

    My time is spent gathering information so that my brain can keep suffering at bay... a suffering of hopeless... a time to gather information on the credibility for primal therapy... a hell of work... urgency for my life... a work without options!

    I am building my life around cognitive illusions... illusions... as long as they dont tell about what!? Those words for reminder of myself... a lonely boy on hiking in attempt to get home!?


  4. primal theory. demystifying, educating.

  5. Paul....I answered you in the previous post about women. If anything, things are no better for the women, especially now that gay marriage is consider o.k. ; men and men being together sexually, and women and women being together sexually. The more we, as women, go up "against" a man, the worse we make it for women.

    1. Hi coastbeach7,

      Thanks for replying. I was brought up during the 60s and 70s when in England there was a strong feminist movement and also culturally there was a strong move to 'androgenism'.
      -'Equal Rights' got a full re-vamp then but not many people had any scientific research or evidence to back up their political theories. So no one really knew what they were talking about. Do we know much more today ? Yes, I think so. Our brains are different and we go about things differently. My theory is that gender awareness is very different. Men and Women focus on and are aware of very different things. But if awareness is different does that mean consciousness is too ?

      I would like to believe that when contact with true feelings is resumed then this partial awareness (so different between the sexes) becomes conscious and the differences reduce, over time.
      I have also noticed these differences that you refer to but I still feel they are mostly a product of neurosis. In other words when women and men are neurotic it exaggerates our differences and makes each sexes strengths look like the other sexes weaknesses.

      For eg: I for one (man) am a little scared to look after children. . . Women (to me) seem so much better at doing it. This is like the reverse situation you have mentioned.

      But you know, since I broke down and cried a lot I have become a lot better at looking after children, less daunted and more able to empathise and focus on play. . .

      I wonder if women who break down and cry in their original hurts perhaps become more able to do technical stuff and as you say "think and act like a man" ? ? ?

      I think sheri said as much. Also my ex partner was brought up to be 'handy' and is a very competent seamstress, she knows how to fix the machine too.

      It is still a mans world, I agree. Well, with reservations. Let me explain: In the outer 'sympath' world it is obviously still dominated by men. But in the 'inner parasympath world' of family and social relations I feel it is still dominated by women.

      If a "Primal World" could be achieved would these 'domi-nations' remain so opposed ? ? ?

      Paul G.

    2. Hi,

      an afterthought,

      you all may remember the story of a couple who sold their house back in the 70s in England to buy a yacht and sail around the world.

      The Baileys. Maurice and Marylin Bailey. They became famous for having disappeared in the Eastern Pacific soon after coming through the Panama Canal and then re-appearing 4 months later, rescued by a Korean fishing boat. We all thought they had drowned. This was pre satellite navigation days. Apparently they were sunk in an attack by a killer whale near the Galapagos islands (it is likely the whale had been attacked by a whaler and they were in the wrong place at the wrong time).

      Luckily they were in a part of the ocean filled with life and they survived off their wits (and raw sea food) for more than three months in a dingy and life raft. They kept a diary and later wrote a best seller. Interestingly the Royal Navy and various other science based groups became interested in their story of survival because (in particular) it represented a comparison between a man and a woman in identical dire straights; not a usual situation.
      The man, Maurice deteriorated physically and psychologically pretty quickly, He lost weight and hope and got chronically ill whilst the woman, Marylin remained fairly healthy and resolute and convinced of their rescue until after 7 sightings it eventually came. She was in much better condition than he although they had shared the food & water equally.

      I feel women are much more adaptable; much better adapted to survival then men and frankly you would expect that from the evolutionary point of view. The idea that women are better at multitasking is I feel an aspect of this. Though I dispute what 'multitasking' actually means.

      So, as societies become increasingly more departmentalised and specialisations become more prevalent women yet again remain second class citizens because society does not need such adaptable creatures. . . But when the shit hits the fan we men are falling by the wayside like flies.

      It's not very scientific the way I put this but how difficult it is to measure these things ?

      Paul G.

    3. Paul,
      You have some really good questions. I have seen men just get upset like women and be hysterical; but all that I have viewed from a man has been after the "woman's movement".
      So I don't know. Sometimes I just think the man will fall by the wayside only because, to them, they may view it as "well, the woman do it..." I don't want the responsibility of being strong anymore.." So they act like they can't handle hardly anything at is, to them, possibly ..."just an easy way out." The woman's movement, I feel definitely has kicked us and totally backfired. Man is the stronger sex....a women, unless she has totally shown the man that she can overpower people in general, or has money and power over the man, usually never wins going up against a man. I know about couples like Maurice and Marilyn, but I just think that happens, because Marilyn has shown Maurice she has "power " over people. I don't know. Then I heard that the man always listens to his wife, and that the wife is always the leader. I found this to be a stereotype, but according to the person who said it, he firmly believes it. I don't. There are underneath messages, signals, almost like an undertow at times in relationships between man and women. I think the woman's movement actually changed the man. I think, it made everything worse.

    4. Hi coastbeach7,

      There's quite a bit of evidence to show that not so long ago men (particularly in England) were really a lot more passionate and emotionally expressive than we are now. This was also culturally acceptable.

      It seems to me that the 'wrong turn' in evolution we humans made was the result of accumulated neurotic pain in individuals in families and societies. Thus the inevitable retreat into the defensive ramparts of our neocortexes. Where else could we go but more deeply into thinking ?
      With thinking comes unreal advantages and unfair disadvantages. . . I feel the women's movement was an inevitable necessity. In Africa and Asia feminist ideas are essential because the extent of male neurosis there is so extreme and so repressive on women there that it is an important movement for them.
      But here in our so called advanced civilisations I feel the women's movement has put women's self image in competition with the victim. By this I mean there is the political risk of achieving 'apparent successes' at the expense of the real victims. These are the real woman who need to feel their pain. To do that women have to get beneath the sexual political issues with men. I accept that so many women have been actually abused by men as to need to rage at men and to subsequently start the chaim of pain down. . . but how many feminists realise raging at abusive men is just the start ?

      I thought I was weak because my feminist influenced ex partner thought I was weak to break down and cry. She thought I was also weak to become enraged with her denial. And then because I loved her I started believing I must actually be weak to feel. I must actually be weak to believe that if my ex could break down and feel her early pains then maybe all my craziness would no longer be the limiting factor in our relationship. I mean, now that I've found my pain I really wish she could find hers.

      Aaaaand I feel guilty for feeling that ? Yes, because she hasn't and she is still in the ramparts of her brainwashed mind projecting her unmet needs onto me.

      If only she could really reach her pains then she would realise there's no need for forgiveness or reconciliation, no need to defend or attack, no need to ignore or dismiss. But I know that for as long as she carries with her her new book of personal empowerment rules, well then nothing I say or do will ever be right and she will always see me as the perpetrator and she will always feel the victim.

      Most of all she will never admit that this is how her feminist Buddhist programmer therapist has left her. Because in theory she has risen above her persecutor and is indeed no longer at risk of being victimised. . . If that isn't a Janovian Gap I don't know what is.

      What kind of empowerment is this ?

      Paul G.

  6. Hi All,

    this may seem off topic but as is so often the case, insights come rolling along quite a bit later. . .

    Andrew made this pertinent comment in an earlier post:

    -"Just because you can't (yet) clinically measure a given variable, that does not mean it does not exist. And to think and act as though it does not exist, when it so obviously does or could, can only be interpreted as 1st order stupidity"-.

    We've been talking about solipsism and 'infantile thinking'. . .

    So, what's interesting here is how the thinking brain becomes more or less developed (still during the critical period) AND also more or less 'connected up' to the limbic system.

    Now my Dad was "never hugged by his mother" (quote / unquote) but he was brought up by a wet nurse and a nanny who undoubtedly loved him and consequently at the age of 85 he still approximates a human being and becomes gradually a more feeling person. But my point is that he still has infantile thinking. For example when I tried to discuss Mums dementia with him he said:

    -"DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT CAUSES, I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN SYMPTOMS"-. (1st order stupidity)? I think so.

    Discussing Mums dementia and particularly 'memory issues' with my brother who was born breach and like me abused at boarding school, he said:

    -" IF I CAN'T REMEMBER IT, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"-. (1st order stupidity)? I think so.

    If I discuss certain issues with my 3 year old grandson, such as bed times , meal times and time for anything in particular he can say "I'm not sleepy". "I'm not hungry" and "I don't want it" respectively. Then ten minutes or less later he can say: "I'm hungry, I'm sleepy and I'm going out shopping on my bike with Dad". . . All at the same time. The words strung together do not relate to his needs nor to any one's reality. Is this also 1st order stupidity ? NO, he's only 3 years old.

    One cannot expect a 3year old to be reasonable, so no; not 1st order stupidity. . . 3 year olds need guidance so that their developing brains form a facsimile of their own needs in time, in relation to others. Here is born basic morality and sadly in my opinion this is where most people become "STUPID IN THE 1st ORDER". This so because most parents and carers only provide 2 dimensional boundaries based on the lowest common denominator of need. Or to put it another way: "For Convenience sake". Thus the poor child's needs to become self understanding and self motivating through the relationship with genuine carers get left out of the moral equation.

    Thus most peoples thinking brains can only think according to limited parameters and you simply cannot reason with them. You can ask them what they wan't but that might not even cut the mustard; for example a paranoiac might wonder why you want to know (!)

    This "1st order stupidity" is a symptom of the neocortex cut off from the limbic system and this 'rift' occurs in the critical period and in particular during the time the child can put words to situations but has only stupid and un-feeling parents and carers.

    Paul G.

    1. Hi Paul

      "First Order Fear" or "First Order Pain" perhaps? Are people actually stupid? Are'nt people frightened, fearful etc. People are frightened and fearful of being rejected so if something is "remembered" then it rocks the family boat perhaps?

    2. Hi planespotter, yes that too. . .

      I feel the '1st order of stupidity' is actually the extreme extent of the denial of one's own neurosis. Art uses the expression Janovian Gap but I don't know if he means what I mean.

      I suppose neurosis uses up a lot of energy and brain power. . . like a computer with lots of fragmented disc space and viruses (goodness don't we just make machines that reflect our own image / un-natural appearances).

      Consequently we are "punch drunk" in our own self ignorance. I cover my denial up with a fine command of the English Language. Quite the little prof I am.

      That's not to say everything I say is a cover for my hurts but let's face it, would I be saying any of this here on this blog if I weren't hurting inside? I think this is the point Frank keeps making.

      Paul G.

  7. it seems that there can't be no cure without the real caring for life.
    it could really be a natural, optimal, healthy state of system. whether is a universe or a cell.
    who feels is the one who cares. it's a regaining function of parts of us that
    are indispensable for the caring (meaningful) connection between the inside/outside.
    then everything can sit on it's natural place.
    the system wants that because there is some kind of memory or just pure need for health,
    for survival.

    recently i heard one writer.. a war witness who lost many of his friends and acquaintances few years after the war.
    thinking about the stress they were exposed for years
    he wonders if they had any right to forgive those who provoked stress to them during the war time? he implies that they still had a war going on inside so to speak.

    so did their post war attitude cost them their lives? save their lives during the war?

    how can we truly "judge" or "forgive" with part of us?
    what it is REALLY - remains unknown!
    in pain, in context, in connection, judge and forgive could be the same thing. real caring.
    no more conflict.
    no more condeath.

  8. Read parts of a book on Near-Death Experiences....says that children have adult minds because of it. Says possibly trauma in the womb, makes one more sensitive, more aware, able to be "somewhat" from what I gathered, "psychic". Says that birth trauma, and children with near - death experiences are more intelligent. For the "passive" child, having gone through birth trauma nothing was mentioned. I don't think they meant for all children. It just touched upon life before birth, and trauma, so I didn't really get into reading it. Had statistics to back up the intelligence of children, but still , for some reason, just thought that it was that informative. I feel bad, of course, anyone , at any time, having to go through "near-death experiences." Just surprised that it was out there, and didn't really have that much to say about life before birth.

  9. i wonder what is the effect of suffering on longevity and health in general.
    will happy person with imprint live longer and/or healthier than if she is suffering?
    depression or anxiety? drugs or cognitive therapy?
    hard questions.
    for those in proper therapy access could leave less and less room, less reason,
    less time for mysteries, deceive, suffering. more time for relaxed living. whatever that means ))
    patient with access could answer these questions easily: it is all basically not good.

    1. Hello Vuko!

      Your question contradicts itself!
      There are no "happy" people carrying the imprinted memories... being a professor is also a symptom and he suffers physiologically... if so!
      What may make a difference to how long we live with similar history are in all probability on our genetic makeup?
      The genetic set is probably the answer to most of your further questions! Genes who are inherited will probably show these differences? Genes give the "enablers" for some but not for others... depending on heritage!

      Your Frank

    2. Hi Frank,
      i meant who "successfully cope" with triggers, who are not overwhelmed by the imprint, in acute suffering... helpless... or even suicidal.
      there should be some difference.
      that doesn't mean that the ways of successful coping are not self destructive or that the body don't suffer differently and/or indirectly. that is hard to predict i guess.
      professor maybe can't stop reading. but should we take the books from him?
      violently disturb the balance and make him suffer?
      to what goal? just to see what happens? to see the stress and then the reconstruction
      of defense system. if it ever happens.
      people change, but there is a good way and bad way.
      the good way is efficient. with more and more access. right?

    3. Hi Frank,

      Frank, there are 'happy' people carrying imprints. It's just their gates are working well.
      These happy people probably have gestational and / or birth imprints but their parents made their lives as loving and as caring as possible afterwards.

      The biggest problem therefore is that repression is so effective as to render the 'sufferer' totally unaware of their condition. Then bang! at 60 or 70 or whenever, they start to get seriously ill. Their cells can no longer take the bio chemical pressure but repression (gating) is still as strong as ever.

      This is why mainstream research can always assume that disease originates anywhere (except where it actually does). . . There is so much concocted evidence because unless you deliberately consider and research the imprint as cause then many different explanations can offer some logical conclusions; enough 'logical conclusions' to set up multi billion dollar research programs all looking in the wrong place and inventing new drugs that mostly are barely palliatives etc etc. Once you look down the microscope you find all sorts of microscopic variables but never the actual causes, IE: the imprint.

      So, researchers have to take a leap of faith to connect methylation and epigenetics to early trauma. . . Nobody really wants to do this because it unveils their own potential condition. Suddenly we ourselves are potential victims. Repression militates against this realisation. Thus we are always looking in the wrong place.

      So I'm afraid to remind you that there are many many happy people out there who are 'blissfully unaware' and will probably get sick. . . They will be paying a proportion of their income to research institutions to keep them in this 'blissfully ignorant' state too.

      Primal Theory will continue for a while to be a minority view. Things will change, they already are in small ways; because science is a powerful force in human affairs and will eventually start to change the current paradigms. It's just a long and tedious road. . .

      Paul G.

    4. Hi Vuko,

      I agree with you. Your words perfectly describe the situation I am in with my son staying in his flat for a while. I hold onto the belief that I am at least accomplishing one thing: to be my grandson's helpful witness. On the other hand, my presence here has made my son's condition worse. I for him and he for me are both constant reminders of our traumatic past. Consequently he takes more drugs to 'kill' the resonance / pain and I drink more alcohol to 'kill' mine.

      Ironically the local authority appear to think that because we are family and I am 'living' at an 'address', then I don't need re-housing. So. . . drastic measures are needed. I am forced to advertise my families 'condition' lest we be taken as "OK" when we are not.

      This could lead to all sorts of other problems, such as well paid social workers being put on the case and doctors demanding I go on a 12 steps scheme or some such time wasting nonsense.
      Staying in my grandsons bedroom makes all sorts of problems. Nobody apart from me and my son understand. Well, he doesn't really understand, he just takes more drugs to 'kill' his confusion. This also makes collaborating with him nearly impossible because the drugs knock out his sense of time and his forward thinking capacity.

      Without clinging onto my tiny carpentry business and the 'workaholic outlet' this offers me, then ordinary life would not be worth living. That's not to say I'm suicidal but I am on the verge of going completely "PIKEY".

      Perhaps this is why I cling onto my 40 year old Landrover. . . all I need now is a caravan to tow behind and various 'park ups' out of town and there we are, a true return to the Victorian values our political predecessors have successfully re-introduced. . .

      I hear on BBC Radio 4 that Trollop is the person to read on the subject. . . Any opinions there from our English members?

      Homelessness is a real issue in England. In the city I live in there are 16,000 people waiting to be re-housed by the local authority (out of a population of 500,000). Yet the government is introducing a bedroom tax to penalise those social housing tenants with one room more than they need for themselves. This regardless of their need to accommodate other family members part time.
      Meanwhile the banks keep on paying bonuses to their executives whilst they lose money hand over fist. The property developers hang onto their land waiting for house prices to rise. They will eventually "MAKE A KILLING" by building the worst badly designed houses built to the lowest standards in Europe. They will sell them at the highest prices to a desperate population. The banks / mortgage companies will only lend to the best paid people and they will buy half of these houses to let out to poorer people.

      Local communities are never consulted and outside labour is always used.

      Also, outside policing to enforce these highly inappropriate developments is always used. They are built often on flood plains or where local communities are really in need of schools, hospitals and community centers. So further fragmentation of our already extremely neurotic society is forced on us.

      Foreign nationals come here believing things are good, they stay for a while working in jobs that are so low paid people who live here cannot afford to take them because the cost of living is so high. Nearly always accommodation is provided for these workers and they can afford to send money back home. After a while most of these people leave in disgust when they discover what an incredibly unfriendly society England really is.

      I digress, but I agree with your point that in some respects it is better "to let sleeping dogs lie". . . With reservations. 'Access' cannot be forced. If people have coping strategies then it is best not to remove them before the person is able to construct new ones for themselves.

      Paul G.

  10. Then again, to avoid pain and suffering, mentally, I have found throughout my life , it is better never to "let on" about oneself, even to people who you think are close to you. Once some little thing is found out, one's life can just be made "hell"; either because the other person is jealous, just feels as though the person has "too much energy , and is too optimistic". If one "let's on" about their life, they way they feel, what they like, etc....then possibly constant , habitual pain can be encountered by other people; possibly family members, possibly so-called "friends", possibly co-workers (who one might also call as "so-called" friends". I have found, it never ceases; and just gets worse as the population gets larger and as time goes by. Children never suffered as much as they do in this day; times were simpler back when.

    1. Hi coastbeach7,

      I totally agree, it's a minefield and you can see why cognitivism is so popular. Everything is just "All Out There" isn't it ?

      Paul G.

  11. Maybe 'affection' is a stretch but I'm guessing a psychopath can neurotically sense his victim's beauty - there is some kind of love in the transaction. I saw a TV documentary on a pedophile who got arrested after his video was found by police. During the interview, the pedophile was smug and remorseless. He had raped a young boy, one of many, and had left the boy in the forest and video taped the while thing. He said he always feels love for the children he molests. He wanted the police to know that. He killed himself the next day. Obviously he was evil and belonged in prison forever, or in a coffin, but it was interesting how he wanted to show that he felt love. Janov says it is easy to confuse loveless sex with love because sex can release a lot of oxytocin into the blood. But does the physical sensation alone release all of that oxytocin? Or is it neurotic love? I wonder if some kind of love is necessary to start the oxytocin, which is then boosted even more by the physical sensation, which in turn boosts the feeling of love (neurotic love). I think all feelings could be a cycle in which the feeling and the hormone boost each other in a reciprocal fashion. Perhaps an unresolvable feeling would get worse and worse if there was no way of stopping either the feeling or the hormone.

  12. Hi Richard,

    -"Perhaps an unresolvable feeling would get worse and worse if there was no way of stopping either the feeling or the hormone"-.

    So if a child was made to imprint guilty feelings of responsibility toward the parent (ie: becoming the parent's 'caretaker') then you could postulate that there would be a constellation of hormone injections which would come first (1st line) followed by the feeling (in the limbic system) as a consequence. I mean the feeling of guilt is a kind of symbolic caring modus isn't it ? Thus I always obey my parents because it's my fault they gave birth to me (etc etc).

    So if your Mum suffered as she gave birth to you, you could end up taking the blame for everything later. . . Everything to the point of suicide. . .

    This is way BELOW mind control but MIND (3rd line) control will work very well on these "prototypes" because of the resonance down. . .

    I think Apollo might have been hinting at this several moonths ago. . . Also planespotter muted this point. I feel guilty too, as soon as any one feels anything I often begin to 'take the blame'. . .

    Paul G.


Review of "Beyond Belief"

This thought-provoking and important book shows how people are drawn toward dangerous beliefs.
“Belief can manifest itself in world-changing ways—and did, in some of history’s ugliest moments, from the rise of Adolf Hitler to the Jonestown mass suicide in 1979. Arthur Janov, a renowned psychologist who penned The Primal Scream, fearlessly tackles the subject of why and how strong believers willingly embrace even the most deranged leaders.
Beyond Belief begins with a lucid explanation of belief systems that, writes Janov, “are maps, something to help us navigate through life more effectively.” While belief systems are not presented as inherently bad, the author concentrates not just on why people adopt belief systems, but why “alienated individuals” in particular seek out “belief systems on the fringes.” The result is a book that is both illuminating and sobering. It explores, for example, how a strongly-held belief can lead radical Islamist jihadists to murder others in suicide acts. Janov writes, “I believe if people had more love in this life, they would not be so anxious to end it in favor of some imaginary existence.”
One of the most compelling aspects of Beyond Belief is the author’s liberal use of case studies, most of which are related in the first person by individuals whose lives were dramatically affected by their involvement in cults. These stories offer an exceptional perspective on the manner in which belief systems can take hold and shape one’s experiences. Joan’s tale, for instance, both engaging and disturbing, describes what it was like to join the Hare Krishnas. Even though she left the sect, observing that participants “are stunted in spiritual awareness,” Joan considers returning someday because “there’s a certain protection there.”
Janov’s great insight into cultish leaders is particularly interesting; he believes such people have had childhoods in which they were “rejected and unloved,” because “only unloved people want to become the wise man or woman (although it is usually male) imparting words of wisdom to others.” This is just one reason why Beyond Belief is such a thought-provoking, important book.”
Barry Silverstein, Freelance Writer

Quotes for "Life Before Birth"

“Life Before Birth is a thrilling journey of discovery, a real joy to read. Janov writes like no one else on the human mind—engaging, brilliant, passionate, and honest.
He is the best writer today on what makes us human—he shows us how the mind works, how it goes wrong, and how to put it right . . . He presents a brand-new approach to dealing with depression, emotional pain, anxiety, and addiction.”
Paul Thompson, PhD, Professor of Neurology, UCLA School of Medicine

Art Janov, one of the pioneers of fetal and early infant experiences and future mental health issues, offers a robust vision of how the earliest traumas of life can percolate through the brains, minds and lives of individuals. He focuses on both the shifting tides of brain emotional systems and the life-long consequences that can result, as well as the novel interventions, and clinical understanding, that need to be implemented in order to bring about the brain-mind changes that can restore affective equanimity. The transitions from feelings of persistent affective turmoil to psychological wholeness, requires both an understanding of the brain changes and a therapist that can work with the affective mind at primary-process levels. Life Before Birth, is a manifesto that provides a robust argument for increasing attention to the neuro-mental lives of fetuses and infants, and the widespread ramifications on mental health if we do not. Without an accurate developmental history of troubled minds, coordinated with a recognition of the primal emotional powers of the lowest ancestral regions of the human brain, therapists will be lost in their attempt to restore psychological balance.
Jaak Panksepp, Ph.D.
Bailey Endowed Chair of Animal Well Being Science
Washington State University

Dr. Janov’s essential insight—that our earliest experiences strongly influence later well being—is no longer in doubt. Thanks to advances in neuroscience, immunology, and epigenetics, we can now see some of the mechanisms of action at the heart of these developmental processes. His long-held belief that the brain, human development, and psychological well being need to studied in the context of evolution—from the brainstem up—now lies at the heart of the integration of neuroscience and psychotherapy.
Grounded in these two principles, Dr. Janov continues to explore the lifelong impact of prenatal, birth, and early experiences on our brains and minds. Simultaneously “old school” and revolutionary, he synthesizes traditional psychodynamic theories with cutting-edge science while consistently highlighting the limitations of a strict, “top-down” talking cure. Whether or not you agree with his philosophical assumptions, therapeutic practices, or theoretical conclusions, I promise you an interesting and thought-provoking journey.
Lou Cozolino, PsyD, Professor of Psychology, Pepperdine University

In Life Before Birth Dr. Arthur Janov illuminates the sources of much that happens during life after birth. Lucidly, the pioneer of primal therapy provides the scientific rationale for treatments that take us through our original, non-verbal memories—to essential depths of experience that the superficial cognitive-behavioral modalities currently in fashion cannot possibly touch, let alone transform.
Gabor Maté MD, author of In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters With Addiction

An expansive analysis! This book attempts to explain the impact of critical developmental windows in the past, implores us to improve the lives of pregnant women in the present, and has implications for understanding our children, ourselves, and our collective future. I’m not sure whether primal therapy works or not, but it certainly deserves systematic testing in well-designed, assessor-blinded, randomized controlled clinical trials.
K.J.S. Anand, MBBS, D. Phil, FAACP, FCCM, FRCPCH, Professor of Pediatrics, Anesthesiology, Anatomy & Neurobiology, Senior Scholar, Center for Excellence in Faith and Health, Methodist Le Bonheur Healthcare System

A baby's brain grows more while in the womb than at any time in a child's life. Life Before Birth: The Hidden Script That Rules Our Lives is a valuable guide to creating healthier babies and offers insight into healing our early primal wounds. Dr. Janov integrates the most recent scientific research about prenatal development with the psychobiological reality that these early experiences do cast a long shadow over our entire lifespan. With a wealth of experience and a history of successful psychotherapeutic treatment, Dr. Janov is well positioned to speak with clarity and precision on a topic that remains critically important.
Paula Thomson, PsyD, Associate Professor, California State University, Northridge & Professor Emeritus, York University

"I am enthralled.
Dr. Janov has crafted a compelling and prophetic opus that could rightly dictate
PhD thesis topics for decades to come. Devoid of any "New Age" pseudoscience,
this work never strays from scientific orthodoxy and yet is perfectly accessible and
downright fascinating to any lay person interested in the mysteries of the human psyche."
Dr. Bernard Park, MD, MPH

His new book “Life Before Birth: The Hidden Script that Rules Our Lives” shows that primal therapy, the lower-brain therapeutic method popularized in the 1970’s international bestseller “Primal Scream” and his early work with John Lennon, may help alleviate depression and anxiety disorders, normalize blood pressure and serotonin levels, and improve the functioning of the immune system.
One of the book’s most intriguing theories is that fetal imprinting, an evolutionary strategy to prepare children to cope with life, establishes a permanent set-point in a child's physiology. Baby's born to mothers highly anxious during pregnancy, whether from war, natural disasters, failed marriages, or other stressful life conditions, may thus be prone to mental illness and brain dysfunction later in life. Early traumatic events such as low oxygen at birth, painkillers and antidepressants administered to the mother during pregnancy, poor maternal nutrition, and a lack of parental affection in the first years of life may compound the effect.
In making the case for a brand-new, unified field theory of psychotherapy, Dr. Janov weaves together the evolutionary theories of Jean Baptiste Larmarck, the fetal development studies of Vivette Glover and K.J.S. Anand, and fascinating new research by the psychiatrist Elissa Epel suggesting that telomeres—a region of repetitive DNA critical in predicting life expectancy—may be significantly altered during pregnancy.
After explaining how hormonal and neurologic processes in the womb provide a blueprint for later mental illness and disease, Dr. Janov charts a revolutionary new course for psychotherapy. He provides a sharp critique of cognitive behavioral therapy, psychoanalysis, and other popular “talk therapy” models for treating addiction and mental illness, which he argues do not reach the limbic system and brainstem, where the effects of early trauma are registered in the nervous system.
“Life Before Birth: The Hidden Script that Rules Our Lives” is scheduled to be published by NTI Upstream in October 2011, and has tremendous implications for the future of modern psychology, pediatrics, pregnancy, and women’s health.