Art Janov, one of the pioneers of fetal and early infant experiences and future mental health issues, offers a robust vision of how the earliest traumas of life can percolate through the brains, minds and lives of individuals. He focuses on both the shifting tides of brain emotional systems and the life-long consequences that can result, as well as the novel interventions, and clinical understanding, that need to be implemented in order to bring about the brain-mind changes that can restore affective equanimity. The transitions from feelings of persistent affective turmoil to psychological wholeness, requires both an understanding of the brain changes and a therapist that can work with the affective mind at primary-process levels. Life Before Birth, is a manifesto that provides a robust argument for increasing attention to the neuro-mental lives of fetuses and infants, and the widespread ramifications on mental health if we do not. Without an accurate developmental history of troubled minds, coordinated with a recognition of the primal emotional powers of the lowest ancestral regions of the human brain, therapists will be lost in their attempt to restore psychological balance.
Jaak Panksepp, Ph.D.
Bailey Endowed Chair of Animal Well Being Science
Washington State University
Dr. Janov’s essential insight—that our earliest experiences strongly influence later well being—is no longer in doubt. Thanks to advances in neuroscience, immunology, and epigenetics, we can now see some of the mechanisms of action at the heart of these developmental processes. His long-held belief that the brain, human development, and psychological well being need to studied in the context of evolution—from the brainstem up—now lies at the heart of the integration of neuroscience and psychotherapy.
Grounded in these two principles, Dr. Janov continues to explore the lifelong impact of prenatal, birth, and early experiences on our brains and minds. Simultaneously “old school” and revolutionary, he synthesizes traditional psychodynamic theories with cutting-edge science while consistently highlighting the limitations of a strict, “top-down” talking cure. Whether or not you agree with his philosophical assumptions, therapeutic practices, or theoretical conclusions, I promise you an interesting and thought-provoking journey.
Lou Cozolino, PsyD, Professor of Psychology, Pepperdine University
In Life Before Birth Dr. Arthur Janov illuminates the sources of much that happens during life after birth. Lucidly, the pioneer of primal therapy provides the scientific rationale for treatments that take us through our original, non-verbal memories—to essential depths of experience that the superficial cognitive-behavioral modalities currently in fashion cannot possibly touch, let alone transform.
Gabor Maté MD, author of In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters With Addiction
An expansive analysis! This book attempts to explain the impact of critical developmental windows in the past, implores us to improve the lives of pregnant women in the present, and has implications for understanding our children, ourselves, and our collective future. I’m not sure whether primal therapy works or not, but it certainly deserves systematic testing in well-designed, assessor-blinded, randomized controlled clinical trials.
K.J.S. Anand, MBBS, D. Phil, FAACP, FCCM, FRCPCH, Professor of Pediatrics, Anesthesiology, Anatomy & Neurobiology, Senior Scholar, Center for Excellence in Faith and Health, Methodist Le Bonheur Healthcare System
A baby's brain grows more while in the womb than at any time in a child's life. Life Before Birth: The Hidden Script That Rules Our Lives is a valuable guide to creating healthier babies and offers insight into healing our early primal wounds. Dr. Janov integrates the most recent scientific research about prenatal development with the psychobiological reality that these early experiences do cast a long shadow over our entire lifespan. With a wealth of experience and a history of successful psychotherapeutic treatment, Dr. Janov is well positioned to speak with clarity and precision on a topic that remains critically important.
Paula Thomson, PsyD, Associate Professor, California State University, Northridge & Professor Emeritus, York University
"I am enthralled.
Dr. Janov has crafted a compelling and prophetic opus that could rightly dictate PhD thesis topics for decades to come. Devoid of any "New Age" pseudoscience,
this work never strays from scientific orthodoxy and yet is perfectly accessible and
downright fascinating to any lay person interested in the mysteries of the human psyche."
Dr. Bernard Park, MD, MPH
His new book “Life Before Birth: The Hidden Script that Rules Our Lives” shows that primal therapy, the lower-brain therapeutic method popularized in the 1970’s international bestseller “Primal Scream” and his early work with John Lennon, may help alleviate depression and anxiety disorders, normalize blood pressure and serotonin levels, and improve the functioning of the immune system.
One of the book’s most intriguing theories is that fetal imprinting, an evolutionary strategy to prepare children to cope with life, establishes a permanent set-point in a child's physiology. Baby's born to mothers highly anxious during pregnancy, whether from war, natural disasters, failed marriages, or other stressful life conditions, may thus be prone to mental illness and brain dysfunction later in life. Early traumatic events such as low oxygen at birth, painkillers and antidepressants administered to the mother during pregnancy, poor maternal nutrition, and a lack of parental affection in the first years of life may compound the effect.
In making the case for a brand-new, unified field theory of psychotherapy, Dr. Janov weaves together the evolutionary theories of Jean Baptiste Larmarck, the fetal development studies of Vivette Glover and K.J.S. Anand, and fascinating new research by the psychiatrist Elissa Epel suggesting that telomeres—a region of repetitive DNA critical in predicting life expectancy—may be significantly altered during pregnancy.
After explaining how hormonal and neurologic processes in the womb provide a blueprint for later mental illness and disease, Dr. Janov charts a revolutionary new course for psychotherapy. He provides a sharp critique of cognitive behavioral therapy, psychoanalysis, and other popular “talk therapy” models for treating addiction and mental illness, which he argues do not reach the limbic system and brainstem, where the effects of early trauma are registered in the nervous system.
“Life Before Birth: The Hidden Script that Rules Our Lives” is scheduled to be published by NTI Upstream in October 2011, and has tremendous implications for the future of modern psychology, pediatrics, pregnancy, and women’s health.
Editor
Art... I wish your writings could be available in the field I'm currently in (family&domestic violence). It is commonly believed in my field that the offender kills his children *before* himself to attack his partner. Also, differences in those who perpetrate FDV and those who actually kill are attributed largely to social reasons, as well as differences in the relationship (see Adams, D. "Why does he kill" on domestic violence).
ReplyDeleteYou are offering biological reasons. I have proposed this thinking myself in an article I was asked to write for (West Australian) FDV Solicitors. People seem to find it interesting but take it no further. Even top level police dealing w/homicide in this area.
Somehow we really need an overhaul. Primal would change so many fields, and so many lives.
Thanks, Jacquie
Hi Dr Janov
ReplyDeleteMy Father once said to me that he and my Mother gave my sister and myself cuddles until we did'nt want them any longer. You would'nt hug a mugger would you. He turned a blind Eye to the fact that both of us were beaten by our Mother to make us "good' as many children were and still are. I would have thought that the same atmosphere which contributed to early damage in the womb would also often involve violence towards the baby and child. A friend of mine has just lost his wife at the tender of age of 58 to Cancer. I also remember him talking about her screaming at him and the kids. One daughter has loads of self harming lines up her arms and her Mother told me that she threw the same daughter across the room onto the bed as a baby. At her funeral another daughter started to cry and the Father said "Don't cry". It's so sad that people cannot see all the links. I totally get the whole issue of pre-birth and birth trauma. I think I experienced some. However there is so much violence done to kids when they are very young when they are spanked (or paddled at school in some US states) is this not the major cause of the violence. I remember going to work in Taiwan and taking some some small ceramic jugs as gifts. No-one I gave the gift to, knew what these odd things were. The Chinese/Taiwanese don't use jugs and so have no idea what to do with them. In the same way a child who is never hit, humiliated or beaten and is always treated with respect and love is never to going to see these violent acts as legitimate means of expressing thier feelings I would have thought. Are you saying that a person who suffers birth trauma but who is never hit in any way can still go onto perpetrate acts of violence in later life?
I would also say that I think I understand about being stuck at a level of feeling. After my nervous breakdown (I like to call it my breakthrough ((and thank you Dr Janov for explaining this in The Primal Scream and Primal Healing as it got me back to some semblance of normality because I could understand the process) I have felt on and off as though I have lost some of my mojo/vitality and I think this is because I can't go any deeper with much therapy which is offered. The more I have recognised the trauma of my early life and mourned it the better I have felt. I just think I have hit an invisible wall with regard to going any further. I suspect that this is because the pain involved is too great.
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to consider the scruel environment as a sick model of family, a place where young people are squeezed toward a career, a place of exams and expectations that will punish and hurt those who do no measure up. Those whose defenses are insufficient suffer horribly, fail to perform adequately even if they achieve 'a pass' and the 'unloved' syndrome is triggered over and over again. Scruel was originally designed to remove children from their parents so parents were available for labor. John Holt et al are educators who have seen through the structure of school and finally said, Keep your children home: love and nurture them and allow them to learn with their own hearts and minds, following their own interests. Unfortunately, most parents have lost the ability to see the plainest of truths about schooling, about scrueling, and repeat the damage they carry inside themselves, the pattern of desertion, of rejecting their children and giving them over to 'the system'.
ReplyDeleteplanespotter: Yes. it is explained in Life Before Birth. YOu can get it now. art
ReplyDeleteDr. Janov,
ReplyDeleteYes they kill themselves or their children. The world has not understood yet WHY and continues treating only the symptoms.
A recent Euro-Study revealed:
“More children are killed in Finland than in any other western country, according to the Sunday newspaper supplement Sunnuntaisuomalainen. Finland has especially high numbers of fatal assaults on under one-year-olds”.
More at: http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2011/12/paper_finlands_child_murder_rate_highest_in_the_west_3095653.html
New drinking culture reduces lethal violence:
“In Stockholm County, the murder rate is 1.22 victims per 100,000 inhabitants, according to the latest statistics. It is the highest in the country, but simultaneously shows the most dramatic decrease. During the 1990s, the homicide rate in Stockholm namely was 1.77”.
More at: http://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?NID=8155
In Germany newspapers are not permitted to write about suicides and no official numbers of suicides are available anywhere. Almost no studies of suicides are published in the US. I think this is very alarming. I think this is very alarming.
In 2010 I read a study that Sweden and Finland has the highest rate on C-section after world war II. Now Finnish physicians may prefer vaginal delivery and have relatively conservative opinions (incl. drugs) about cesarean sections.
If PT is not implemented everywhere the human race will destroy itself.
Sieglinde
Brian,
ReplyDeleteJohn Holt is right. But what about the neurotic and abusive parents who don’t care for their children?
These children would have more hell at home.
Sieglinde
Art
ReplyDeleteHave you written anywhere about the person who kills "involuntarily" - indeed against their will?
I am a member of that generation which was drafted - conscripted - enslaved - by a totalitarian governent, which arrogantly claimed to be the defender of freedom for all mankind!
I was forced to go A- to jail or B- go into exile or C- go into the US Army.
None of the above was my "free will choice." But individual free choice has no relevance and no legal standing in the "land of the free."
I may be speaking asking this question for many other draftees as well as myself. When I reached our combat unit in Vietnam, I discovered that greater than 60% of my fellow soldiers were also drafted against their will. A high concentration of draftees.
And, not by chance. Folks who "enlisted" versus "drafted" were able to choose their MOS. Choose which military occupational specialty they would be trained in. So it was relatively easy for an enlisted person to avoid the very frontlines of combat.
I believe we are hard wired by our biological nature to not kill a human being. I believe we do so at great psychological pain - perhaps enduring pain - for those of us who are still fortunate to have some remaining fluid access to our feelings.
I believe the combat nightmares will continue for a lifetime. For most of us.
In my instance, I was in a dramatic conflict from the outset. I had finished my college degree. I had served two years in the US Peace Corps - teaching at a Teacher Trainging College in West Africa. I loved the West African rain forest. I loved the kind villagers I worked with.
Two years later, I arrived in Vietnam with out the usual fear of the dark jungle - which so many younger men now confronted for the first time in their lives.
Most importantly, I arrived with a fondness for the village people - who so reminded me of the village folk I had lived with for several years.
Indeed, when I looked into the eyes of a Vietnamese NVA combatant - knowing that one of us would not live another moment - I saw no anger toward me. again and again, I felt no hatred from these men. I did see the eyes of a village peasant - like myself.
I saw the eyes of a fellow draftee - trained in the North of Vietnam and sent to fight and die in the South of Vietnam. An opposing combatant who was also caught up in a war which he too did not understand.
My nightmares began within 3 days of that first close up encounter with the simple inhuman truth of our situation.
My apologies if this is the wrong Forum for posting such a question. I just did not know how to otherwise reach you. The question has burned brightly for years.
Anonymous: One thing I can say: I fought in WW2 and it was a just war. I volunteered to stop the madness, not to enter into it. It is one of the very few times I ever thought war was justified. art
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, let me say that your experience was not just... your reactions were entirely those of a sane person in an insane situation. Vietnam was not justified and we harmed our own hemisphere at least as much as we damaged the Asian one....thank-you for posting your sanity in an insane world..... I wish you much peace in your life. You did not choose to be used as a pawn in a war that was from the outset unjust and inhuman...
ReplyDeleteBrian,
ReplyDeleteJohn Holt is right. But what about the neurotic and abusive parents who don’t care for their children?
These children would have more hell at home.
Sieglinde
Dear Sieglinde, the school system is an escape for abused children. They go from total torture at home to a kind of freedom in the system, an education that promises them good fortune and a place in the world. They go from a frying pan into a fire, if you ask me..... look at Anonymous who served with the Peace Corps and then was drafted to Vietnam. That is what organized education does.... it serves another master, and does not offer the love and nurture of a mom and dad who care. It offers free education in a trade and service to country.... meaning service of the vested interest, the rich corporations... now the war in Iraq is winding down and the Iranians are in the sights of the warmakers among us.... Fox News says they are threatening our oil supply.. this means we will engage them now, find a new war for Anonymous to serve in.... without the ability to say NO! we are just cogs in the machine... That is the real reason that Primal Therapy is kept on the fringes.... it frees people like Anonymous to say NO! The vested interests will always find ways to keep it marginal for this very reason.
SWA,
ReplyDeleteYou hit the nail on the head and knocked the ball out of the park. If we do not treat then entire species of mankind with PT, we are doomed. We will bring about our own extinction, not only of our species, but maybe a good deal of others, too.
Until we are all healed together, we will not fix the very abusive system in place at present. And primal pain is one of those things that will only build and get worse. It collectively accumulates in the species and does not go away.
To treat a few individuals is like the boy who sticks his finger in the dyke. He is not going to stop that levee from breaking. All hell will eventually break loose. But who could possibly imagine that the whole world is going to come around to embracing PT? I’d believe in little green men and leprechauns before I’d buy that one. But if it is as bleak as I suggest, then really, there is no REAL hope. Being real means facing the obvious truth. The future really is hopeless. Well, unless one believes there is a real possibility of God awaiting with plans. I expect no one to buy that, either. They will far more readily believe in space aliens than that ;-)
So how does a stem cope with REAL hopelessness? Oddly, suicide begins to look rational. Yes, I do find that ironic and funny. But we all have to appreciate how very powerful the urge and struggle to live is, even against solid reason and logic. We will just go on deceiving ourselves and struggling on. I know! I do it all the time. We all do.
The truth , the REAL truth is, that the intellect can go where the stem would never dare to go. The intellect can leap tall buildings in a single bound and is faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful that atomic weapons. But since the stem reacts negatively to a number of things, we seldom ever get anywhere in life. Fear of facing hopelessness is part of the problem.
SWA, I have an unrelated question about your name. I try to understand European languages. Sieglinde looks like 2 German words, Sieg and Linde. Do you pronounce the e in Linde in some way? Linda is common in the USA. I find many names in France where the e at the end may or may not be silent or was pronounced in another tribe or language. Or maybe I was seeing German names in French. Who knows.
i will never risk my life for a bunch of strangers. i will help those who want to flee with me. i know that decision is selfish and cannot be morally justified.
ReplyDeletejust like a rat, i will fight only when there is no escape for me and my friends. ever cornered a rat? it will jump onto your throat and bite it. quite scary.
if you think i am too selfish, ask yourself why you don't go to africa and fight for the innocent children who get chopped with machetes? where does one draw the line? do you give money to farmers who torture pigs and chickens?
ultimately, i doubt there is a truly ethical human living on this planet. i just wish everyone would study primal theory. that's the best we can do for now.
in ancient rome, wealthy people knew that a promise could be cheaply mass-produced and sold for a fortune. they sold the promise of a slim sexy body, the promise of a valuable house, the promise of a stable economy, the promise of a stable mind. the promise-makers kept their money, but never kept their promises. they were thieves, but they were never held accountable for the damage they caused. that was the roman way.
ReplyDeletethe roman empire never collapsed. it spread throughout the world. in every conquered country, roman universities were built with grand entrances adorned with marble pillars. inside those universities, psychology students were taught how to deceive. the students learned how to encourage a patient to deceive himself. the method was widely recognised as the most sophisticated, and profitable type of psychotherapy. the romans called it: cognitive behavioural therapy.
in more recent times, a mysterious jewish man created a strange new therapy. it was nothing like a roman therapy; it could not be cheaply mass-produced and sold for a fortune. it was real, and it had to be practiced with skill. it was a cure for almost every type of mental illness. a therapy that could permanently normalise vital signs and hormones. it was the most significant discovery in the history of mankind.
it was the cure for mankind.
and for nearly half a century....it was ignored by the children of the roman empire.
hypnotised in a mainstream institution, the roman children could not see the difference between quality science and cheap science. the children were nothing but a horde of mass-produced clones, trained to steal and pay taxes. their fate was sealed before they were born.
today the jewish man's theory holds true. it spreads through the anti-roman network; a cybernetic underworld devoid of authority figures, devoid of deadlines and punishments, a place where people can think for themselves. here in this no-man's-land, the revolution has begun. as more and more brave souls come to see the light, so too will their children.
the time has come. it has begun.
My Father served in the Royal Navy during World War 2. He watched D-Day from the Destroyer he was on. It seems to me to have been a just war. Not having been around in it is hard for me to comment though I am sure that much of the madness was caused by the way many of the participants were treated a children. The beating and near killing of Hitler as a child by his half Jewish Father and collusion of his Mother and perhaps his traumatisation during WW1 gave Germany someone who was able to give many other damaged people in that country the right to persecute and kill the Jews as Scapegoats for their own mistreatment as children. Hitler used to obessively count aloud during his final days in the bunker just as he counted the strokes his Father gave him. The Allies were his Father perhaps bringing retribution to him and the little Boy he was. Add to that a country like Japan which has such a high level of schizophrenia and a very deferrential approach to authority and BOOM. That war like all wars before was perhaps about a lack of empathy for others and where does empathy come from? Our first year of life on the whole? A crazy war about fear of others and wanting to make everywhere the same. A Mcdonalds on every corner would make the world so safe and very boring. I have just recieved a Teaparty e-mail describing the USA as an exceptionalist Country. When that sleeping Giant woke after Pearl Harbour it saved Europe from the Jackboot and how amazing it was and can be. However when a country ( or some of it's crazier people)starts thinking it is better than any other country that way a delusion of Grandure beckons and we get Iraq's and other rediculous wars and all due to poor parenting. Having recently shaken the stump (no hands) of a mine Victim outside the War Museum in HochiMin City and seen the effects of agent Orange, that fear and hatred of the other is still there lurking in the dark. The Northern Viatnamese thinks the south is lazy and decandent and the south thinks the north is cold and unemotional. A taxi driver said he would love to get rid of the communists but they just could'nt face another war. The women of the world hold it's future in their arms. They need to recognise that they are not always kind just as us men have to recognise our responsibility. A Hockey Mom who paddles her Son or Daughter "for thier own good and in love" or a Middle Eastern Mother dressing her little Boy up in a toy Suicide vest or an Edwardian Woman handing a man a white feather all contribute to war just as much as the Bushes or Binlandens and everyone suffers, men, women and children. Both sexes need to see their part in the dysfunction of the world and it's wars because so long as one sex or the other holds the other one to blame the cycle will never end whether in a school yard with an assault rifle or in Palastine. Just as a country can see itself as perfect and good so too can a person (or should I say some of it's citzens fighting for power) or a sex or a group and that delusion of perfect goodness kills physically and physcologically.
ReplyDeleteThanks Art.
ReplyDelete" ... one of the very few times I ever thought war was justified. "art
Your generation was so relatively "fortunate" to be able to "justify" their individual action and the overall political purpose of that war. But as you say, that is "one of the few times I ever thought war was justified."
What happens in all of the other wars ? Wars which may not be clearly justified?
And then to that class of war that is not clearly justified, add in those wars in which the draft is re-instated - perhaps for our grandchilden ?
I believe it is a recipe for individual human disaster.
Among fellow veteran buddies - some of them also drafted - I have observed worse harm than what I have experienced.
If someone admits to going "overboard" - killing to "get even," killing out of pain for a lost buddy - they seem to have the worst psychological damage today. Maybe permanent.
For now, I guess we leave some of my questions for some future Primal Therapists to work with on a future generation of conscripted soldiers who are forced into an unjustified war.
My guess is that it is just a matter of time before our political class will throw our grandchildren into such a cauldron.
Your work is the most robust, evidenced based psychology out there. The V. A. doctors just can't shine a light to yours.
Once again, thanks for all you write and do.
Richard: Were there Jews in ancient Rome? Good letter art
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: You are most welcome. Marx never wrote for the capitalist powers and I do not write for the psychology establishment. They have a stake in the status quo. art
ReplyDeleteWell Dr. Janov you have it all wrong – PT is out – positive thinking is in, according to Seligman.
ReplyDeleteAn hour ago PBS news reported that:
“KAREN REIVICH: We teach these soldiers how, even when they are stressed, how they can keep their thinking in line, in check, so that they stay positive and composed and ready to tackle whatever the task is at hand.”
“BETTY ANN BOWSER: The psychological training was developed by psychologist Martin Seligman at the University of Pennsylvania. The Army gave his school a $34 million no-bid contract to develop and run the program.”
“Seligman is known as the father of positive psychology, which says that people can lead happier lives by learning how to better process negative thoughts. His theories are the basis of the Army program.”
PTSD, in other words can be healed with positive thinking??? I felt like screaming!
They even have the nerve to ask for everybody’s input. I can’t believe that so much garbage is shown on PBS.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec11/ptsd_12-14.html
Sieglinde
Apollo:
ReplyDeleteYou say “To treat a few individuals is like the boy who sticks his finger in the dyke.”
Ten years ago, when I began contact with numerous victims from around the world, my reaction was – it looks like I try to empty the ocean with a teaspoon. I had contact with many families, including my own, where an abuse pattern was handed down like an heirloom.
There are times I believe I have heard it all but shocking reality surprises me over and over again and I have to withdraw for a week or so from the subject, to keep my sanity.
Right now in Germany a 48 year old man raped his daughter many times. He invited his 16 and 18 year old sons to participate.
A 65 year old man raped his daughter for 40 years and fathered 4 children. The whole town knew about it and did nothing.
About my name. You are right the “e” is spoken in German. The name sounds like two combined names but it is not.”Sieg” in German means victory, and “Linde” is a tree. The name Sieglinde however is over 2000 years old before the German language was established. I hated my name for 50 years because it was so old. Sieglinde comes from the Norman mythology and was one of God Odin's daughters. Sieglinde, as a Valkyrie, had the duty to collect the souls from heroes. All Valkyries or Walkyrie are also mentioned in Richard Wagners Oper “The Ride of the Valkyries”.
Sieglinde
yes there were many jews living in ancient rome, and they were allowed to live under their own law for the most part. they enjoyed the big city life but they didn't like to mingle with the romans.
ReplyDeleteroman and jewish relations were similar in israel; some tension but fairly peaceful. that is, until jesus started making waves. the romans AND the jews thought jesus was an arrogant cult leader. they wouldn't tolerate any threat to the empire, so they killed him.
apparently he came back to life. i don't know where he is now.
Richard said,
ReplyDelete“i will never risk my life for a bunch of strangers. i will help those who want to flee with me. i know that decision is selfish and cannot be morally justified.”
In this case, Richard, I would not find you selfish or unjustified. Who made you or I cops of the world? We do what we can near to us. That is all we can ask of anyone, really. There are those in power who have far more control than we do and they will bear a greater burden of guilt.
Richard said:” i doubt there is a truly ethical human living on this planet. i just wish everyone would study primal theory. that's the best we can do for now.”
True words of wisdom, my friend. We try our best. Few do even that. Awareness that we are flawed and making attempts to figure out how to be better is trying rather than making cop out excuses. To ask too much more would be to ask the impossible. Your head is in a good place right now. Glad to see it.
Richard,
ReplyDeleteI liked many of your Roman figures. Very apt, at times.
Rich:” a cybernetic underworld devoid of authority figures”
“a place where people can think for themselves.”
“here in this no-man's-land, the revolution has begun.”
Devoid of authority figures? I hope you are right but I am not as sure as you are. People thinking for themselves? Sounds good but that does not sound like many I see here on this blog. Many have done well to get to here, even. But there is a ways to go, yet.
The revolution, to my mind, has failed and withered. 1970 should have been a big kick off. But it slowly died out. Our world is approaching its worst state since it began with human beings. Rights have shriveled and police states becoming fashionable. I don’t say this to be cruel, but I get the sense that maybe you are engaging in wishful thinking, that to my way of seeing things, seems perhaps delusional or in denial. Fearful of the truth, maybe. Running?
I can not find that hope that springs eternal there. If there is hope, which I do have, I feel it ought to have some good evidence behind it. I don’t see that in current trends. But my perception is no more right or wrong than yours. Only time is going to prove who is right or wrong. But I would like to see more evidence as to why the future is so bright. If the evidence is there, it would not be right to hide or conceal it. Share it with us if you would.
Planespotter
ReplyDeleteSince Germany had become a war monster and a police state, it is easy to see why many might see that war as justified. But I thought I would create an imaginary situation that, if it were true, might negate this righteous declaration.
Lets suppose that some very wealthy and powerful people having control of much of the world, and knowing how easy it is to mold and change a nation when engaged in a war of great duress and crisis, decided to create and grow an opposing nation/enemy which would require us to fight and declare an emergency and institute laws that normally would not be needed.
Now if they did create a nation/enemy that formerly had been no significant enemy, and then ask us to fight the enemy with everything we have, would that still be a just war? I think not. Had they not made that enemy strong to begin with, we would not have needed to fight in the 1st place.
It is easy to “invent” and “manufacture” enemies. Even Rome did it. Just ask the Gauls. We, of late, have made many new “enemies” real or imagined. If we continue to be willing to fight, they will continue to make enemies so they can manipulate us with war time rules of “emergency.”
In order to win, you must stop playing the sinister game in the 1st place. Politics can be a very sinister place for good people. Socrates was executed for no good reason other than he had too much to say about those in power in Athens. For this, they required his life. Just food for thought.
Apollo: You cannot get others to go kill strangers, to shoot carpenters and accountants from another land unless you fill their heads with the "enemy" art
ReplyDeleteSWA,
ReplyDeleteI, too, even though very jaded and cynical, still find new shock and surprise.
You mention some horrific rapes. What I would say there is that I seriously doubt those men did not know what they were doing. But having power over others induces some to do as they please. Many others would do as much if it were not for the law and punishment.
Most have never heard many of the horror stories of WWII. I was told one by a man whose buddy was in WWII. He witnesses an American GI who found a young German couple hiding in a barn. He host the husband and then raped the wife. Then he shot her in the head. IN battle situations, there is often times when no one will supervise you or ever catch up with you.
My father was stationed in Sefalden Austria from 51-53. A soldier was going to rape a 16 year old from the town and my father drew his rifle and told the guy, stop, or this goes off. He turned him in and they shipped him off. The parents came to the camp and insisted that my father get recognized for what he did and that they were very grateful.
War is damn nasty business. The Illiad, in many ways, was written as a warning about letting anger and emotions make us become excessively cruel. The gods punished the Greeks after their victory, for a rape on one of the altars of the gods. Most of the famous Greeks of that battle lost their lives soon after. Pay back by the gods, they say. Karma, at least.
Appreciate the knowledge of German. I see 4 major languages in Europe. German seems most dominant. Greek and Latin. Don’t know quite how Etruscan can or does fit, if at all. French has Germanic and Roman, but I noticed the French talk backwards. I think it is their Gaulic/Celtic roots cause the Gaels talk backwards, too. I keep working on it.
___________
ReplyDeleteWhat is Love?
___________
By Richard Atkin
What is love?
Love is the most primitive of all emotions. In fact, it is almost first-line. Love is an instinct generated by centrally-projecting oxytocin neurons located close to the brain stem.
Why do we love?
Love is the basic desire to support and protect another animal. One's love for a parent is the same as one's love for a child, grandparent, sexual partner or dog. It is nothing more than the desire to support and protect. The most primitive (and therefore most rewarding) loving behaviour is cuddling. Cuddling provides direct protection and enables complex communication. Cuddling is a behaviour common to all land-based mammals.
Are there different types of love?
No, but love can be combined with any feeling that doesn't contradict it's purpose. For example: humans can experience joy and love, sadness and love, fear and love, sex and love, etc. They cannot experience anger and love, hatred and love or disgust and love because those feelings do not have a supportive or protective function.
Love can be absent from any emotion or first-line feeling. For example: affection is a combination of joy and love. Joy can exist without love. Sympathy is a combination of sadness and love. Sadness can exist without love.
And finally, love can be felt on it's own; a mother breastfeeding her baby, a man and woman falling asleep in each other's arms.
Love is the most primitive and powerful of all emotions.
THE END
Art,
ReplyDeleteIs not this "screening" something you could come to Sweden and show? It sounds like something very intresting... intresting in the sence of beeing of science... something the Swedish authorities say are crucial? I would love to come for the screening... but I can't get a visa.
Frank
Hi Art,
ReplyDelete-You cannot get others to go kill strangers, to shoot carpenters and accountants from another land unless you fill their heads with the "enemy"
Isn't this also just 'aligning' the soldiers' 3rd line to resonate with their 1st & 2nd line traumas so they can act out and their trauma run its' course? Maybe even heroic acts that result in the death of the hero are just his trauma 'running out' its' course.
You save your buddies with your own life and you can do it as a substitute for the traumatic family you came from in the first place. Posthumously recognised, at last.
Do non traumatised children make good soldiers? What is a good soldier?
Paul G.
"You cannot get others to go kill strangers, to shoot carpenters and accountants from another land unless you fill their heads with the "enemy"
ReplyDeletei watched a documentary on the various techniques businesses use to manipulate politicians and exploit legal loopholes. the agents employed to carry out these corrupt practices are screened for specific personality traits. they are psychopaths, or semi-psychopaths. they are always willing to obey instructions so long as there is an egotistical reward on offer. they interviewed one. he worked for a large property development business and had recently lost his job. he prided himself on his ability to disclose shocking information, but not enough to risk his own safety. he admitted to organizing a deal that led to the starvation of thousands of people.
art, have you ever tried to give a psychopath tons of oxytocin to help him to trust you? then give him a huge amount of naloxone to force him to de-repress. then use a hypnotist's distraction techniques so that he cannot form any coherent thoughts, then, every time he starts to show signs of psychosis, inject him with tranquilizers. if his psychopathy is not caused by brain damage, you might get a reaction. if he still doesn't react, give him a lethal dose after he has signed a no liability contract.
Dr. Janov,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the invitation for the screening next Wednesday (Dec 21)at 6PM at the clinic and you are invited.
I’m a little too far away. Will be this evince available on video?
Thanks,
Sieglinde
I think socialization is at work, too.
ReplyDeleteMen are taught to stuff certain feelings of pain. Family law also favors females. So a guy in a relationship knows all his mate has to do is call the cops and say she's "afraid" and his arse will be grass. He will be evicted from the house (even if he owns it) , lose his kids and assets, and more.
Furthermore, even though women start HALF of all DV fights, men are solely blamed by default. A recent videoclip showed this. A female on a train beats the hell out of "her man." He does nothing back. He knows if he hits her, or even defends himself, other men will beat him. No one comes to his aid. Non one stops the violence. Finally 2 cops arrive. The woman then attacks them. In the end, she was arrested, So was the totally passive male.
In this social era, with men raised to supress feelings, a guy who finally snaps knows he will get no sympathy. Plus he finally feels a bit crazy, not used to expressing feelings of pain-loss-suffering. A mother killing her kids knows she will enjoy empathy no man will. Guys know this. They know they are on their own.
Atop all that, like suicide (which females attempt more, but males "succeed" at more at), males know if they bollix something so FINAL they aren't "real men." So in for a dime, in for $10 million. To wit, if you kill your family, you kill yourself, too. Once you start the only finish is finishing off yourself.
On the other hand, females can use previously abuse/battery as an excuse. Men can't. Though equal victims, guys receive no equal understanding. She gets to say, "I snapped and wasn't responsible." Society tells him, "You should have walked away. Or called for help. Or done something. Real men are always in control."
I'm not denying your psychological interpretation, Art. Just saying there is a huge "gendered" component, too.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete> "I believe we are hard wired by our biological nature to not kill a human being."
Yes. And the military knows this. That's why bootcamp is brainwashing. They know humans will go to great lengths not to kill. In fact, numerous studies have shown in all wars MOST men fire over the heads of enemies or into the air or fail to aim at all. The exceptions are artillery units and planes/drones/etc. where humans do not directly see the carnage they cause.
Historically, most societies tried to avoid/limit killing. That's why "rules of engagement" were developed. Pre-Napoleonic wars were brutal, true; but also brief and limited. Anyone who's ever boxed knows it's hard to keep fighting after about 3 minutes. Even with adrenaline pumping, it's hard to swing a sword for more than a few minutes. Ergo most battles had "relatively" little killing because they were so brief. Most casualties came later, from wounds.
Technology (machineguns, cannons, grenades, etc.) increased the killing.
The idea that most males are beasts who like to kill is a lie. Most guys will, in fact, go to great lengths to avoid fighting. Humans are much more likely to cooperate than kill each other. You can't build cities, corporation, or even barns alone. You need to cooperate. It's just that such endeavors seem mundane, and thus "invisible," compared to the "shock and awe" of war. We think shock-jocks like Howard Stern are the savvy money-makers, everyone else a sucker/sap. Yet Mr. Rogers' career was long and successful, too.
Michael Herr,Tim O'Brien, and others have written movingly about the Vietnam War. Fred Reed, also a vet, is supremely eloquent in his Southernness and an intelligent hell-raiser. He's also is very anti-war and suffers no fools on his blog.
Check those guys out.
Finally, there are similarities between a child dealing with the "combat" of a dysfunctional family and a teen sent to war. Both survive by acting robotic, dealing with PTSD after when feelings try to catch up with prior acts.
Sieglinde:
ReplyDeleteHi. How very interesting. I heard the same segment you did and was about to post about it here when...you did!
"Comprehensive Soldier Fitness" is its name. Instead of using psychology to stop war the military is morphing it to create ever-more-happy killers.
A key CSF mantra is "Everything begins with a thought." Not feelings? When Bojangles' dog died should he have read about bowzer's chemical composition? Would that have beat crying?
Another telling comment from the CSF show: "There are some emotions out there that we don't handle so well."
So emotions are "out there" and not inside us?
CSF is about "changing the way soldiers think about bad experiences." Ergo, cognitive therapy.
The head of the program is a female who will never face combat herself. She said, "if you're not feeding that relationship enough of joy multiplier, we're going to start to see damage."
JOY MULTIPLIER?
3 views:
Seligman:"It's a training program based on the best evidence that science has about the prevention of anxiety and depression."
Bryant Welch, SF trauma psychotherapist: "... the studies of Seligman's work aren't enough to justify the Army's program...[T]here is a shallowness to the assessment that, from my vantage point, I find abhorrent.' "
De. Bessel van der Kolk, BU: " traumatized people cannot think straight because their brains are sort of locked in horror and terror...[Plus] there's times to not feel cheerful. There's a time to feel a deep sense of guilt, of regret, of sorrow, of terror, because we have all of these emotions because we need all of them. And we should not prefer one over the other."
Pat Buchanan and others (of sundry persuasions) have asserted that WWII WAS avoidable.
ReplyDeleteIt certainly seems if WWI reparations hadn't been so initially severe Germany might not have felt so vengeful later. And if political "bow shots" had been fired concerning Germany's re-arming, tentative "march" into the Ruhr, etc. it might have backed off. Ditto granting Germany access to the Polish/Danzig corridor.
Alice Miller also thought if Hitler's parents' peers hadn't raised kids so abusively the latter might not have grown into revenge-seeking adults eager to please their strict father-like Fuhrer.
There are also those who think we prodded Japan to war by restricting its access to fuel and other natural resources.
So who knows? It certainly seems like some gain from war (Mostly those who never serve and never feel the agonies war unleashes). Like sadists, they seem to get off on seeing others suffer by proxy.
How bitter and disillusioning it must be for gung-ho vets to be traumatized and wounded only to come home and find no one cares. And to see, after armistice, how quickly the former "enemy" becomes our trusted friend.
Here's a good anti-war song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR6E_HZCQAI
Richard: You will get lots of comments on this,,,,,by me in my book Biology of Love, on what it is. art
ReplyDeleteFrank: We could bring it to any country that would pay our trip. No charge for speech but airfare yes. art
ReplyDeletePaul G: Did you ever see or read ˇThe Good Soldier Shreik?" art
ReplyDeleteSieglinde: We will have more screenings and then it should be on cable. We will see. art janov
ReplyDeleteTrevor: I wrote about Seligman's nonsense in my new book and my last one, as well. Primal Healing. It is what happens when ideas and theories replace feelings. You able to think any stupid idea and grace it with the title.....theory. art
ReplyDeleteRichard, that is great on love above.
ReplyDeleteCuddling, and support &protection I strongly relate, the feeling when you truly care about someone's welfare. I have a friend I'm incredibly attached to this way, an x of mine. I worry about him.
Trevor, the difference between men & women's experience of being on the receiving end of physical violence in a relationship is almost always the fear factor. A woman will almost always genuinely fear, sometimes for her life, in this situation, whereas for a man he usually feels he can stop it if he needs to.
ReplyDeleteFor women this is also coupled with the physical violence happening alongside other forms of power & control in the relationship, whereas for men, again, this steady, predictable dynamic is not usually present. This is what understandings of domestic violence are based on. I agree, it is gendered; there is a gendered component on top of the underlying psychological dynamics of why both men & women end up in this very sad and dangerous dynamic.
Art,
ReplyDeleteThat sounds very good. Can you tell us... what will the total cost be?
Frank
"never wrote for the capitalist powers"
ReplyDeletethey don't have any "power".
"The verbal packaging of consumer choice as business “control” has become so widespread that few people seem to feel a need to do anything so basic as thinking about the meaning of the words they are using, which transform an ex post statistic into an ex ante condition.
By saying that businesses have “power” because they have “control” of their markets, this verbal virtuosity opens the way to saying that government needs to exercise its “countervailing power” in order to protect the public.
Despite the verbal parallels, government power is in fact power, since individuals do not have a free choice as to whether to obey government laws and regulations, while consumers are free to ignore the products marketed by even the biggest and supposedly most “powerful” corporations in the world. There are people who have never set foot in a Wal-Mart store and there is nothing that Wal-Mart can do about it, despite being the world’s largest retailer."
-Thomas Sowell, Intellectuals and Society
Trevor said, “Humans are much more likely to cooperate than kill each other. You can't build cities, corporation, or even barns alone. You need to cooperate.”
ReplyDeleteTrevor, so true. All human progress, all advances in civilization grow out of that powerful instinct to cooperate toward the betterment of all.
Apollo said,
ReplyDelete“...The Iliad, in many ways, was written as a warning about letting anger and emotions make us become excessively cruel. The gods punished the Greeks after their victory....”
Apollo, so true. And the Odyssey, is perhaps a primal allegory about how a soldier can arrive in a place called home, but not “come home” for many years - even decades. Within their minds Odysseus and his men wander, tossed by subconscious forces beyond their control - adrift amid demons of many faces and temptations, adrift amid the seas of a multiple of high risk diversions. These ancient adventures could be viewed as rich, primal allegories of the wild temptations to act out - the many faceted "act outs" that the cognitive mind will conjure up when immersed in overwhelming pain.
Witness the same Odyssey of act outs today - combat veteran drug abuse, alcohol abuse, high risk sky diving, wild sexual behavior.
All of Odysseus’s great military prowess and wit are needed to win out at each step, over each psychological battle as it re-appears before him in yet another form, another temptation. Then, as now, many of the former “heroes” succumb.
Homer is observing what Art has been stating for years, no amount of wit, will - and even heroic military prowess - can overcome the inexorable power of primal pain.
Indeed despite his powerful wish to return home again, Odysseus and his crew are powerless before these act outs for a full 20 years - a full generation - in those ancient times. Then, in the fullness of a generation, Homer in mercy allows an old Odysseus to truly come home again - well, just enough to once again take up his role as defender and supporter of his long loving and faithful wife.
However, for some of them, as Art said so rivetingly, “...they kill themselves at the end.” Yes, by act out, after act out, after tiresome act out - and for those who run out of sufficiently doped up “act outs,” then by direct suicide.
Art! You might find this interesting:
ReplyDeletehttp://fora.tv/2011/11/02/David_Eagleman_Will_We_Ever_Understand_the_Brain
Apparently the goal is to simulate the brain with a super computer to see how it functions. Fantastic idea IF you can get a computer with the muscle to do it. With 'atomic' computers you sure could.
To say: Imagine when we can virtual prototype life itself - right down to simulating cell formation and division. Imagine what it could mean to genetic engineering when you can first accurately model 'hypothetical' life forms cybernetically. Heaven forbid - you could genetically engineer God! i.e. a homo sapien with a giant brain (and ego).
...or maybe I should just write science fiction books or something?
Frank: are you asking about the Legacy program? We do not know the cost yet. art janov
ReplyDeletemy theory on love wasn't quite correct. children don't often feel the desire to support and protect their parents....but they do want to adore their parents.
ReplyDeleteso i guess love is very basic indeed; love is just a feeling of love. that's all.
so... when you combine love with other emotions and thoughts, you end up with a mommy who looks for the best ways to support and protect her unborn baby etc. etc.
i know your definition, art, you discuss it in terms of behaviour; everything one can do to fulfill another's needs. but isn't it amazing how a few hormones can induce that behaviour? nature has done something incredible....it has created the most beautiful thing that could ever exist; LOVE.
nature is zillions of years ahead of you or einstein or edison.....but we think we can fix it with a few electric shocks to the brain, or some drugs to sedate the poor children who fell prey to nature's clumsy attempts at constructing a viable brain.
nature created LOVE. clumsy? i don't think so!
art, were you given drugs when you were a child?
Yes Art... I am asking about the Legacy program. I will look forward to when you will know.
ReplyDeleteFrank
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteOn the Illiad and Odyssey and symbolism,
Thank you again for stimulating thoughts. I might have to take a shower after this one. I had not considered the possible symbolisms tween the Odyssey and War trauma (PTSD) but its there. Very good points. I am fond of symbolism and it is a sophisticated way of relating something. It shows a mind that is flexible and resilient in many ways. I liked you choices as well.
I wish PTSD got more attention and respect. Many in society are showing up as PTSD, though they never went to war, at least not the literal kind, right? Think of the paradox between psychology, in its broad sense, and life and how the world is organized. Psychology is supposed to “treat” and “heal” while ignoring the causes of the harm. They ignore it, maybe, because they protect and defend those that cause that harm with their wars, their laws, their phony courts and justice, their tormenting employers, who enjoy protections of law from prosecution and lawsuits.
I am not sure which battlefield is worse. I am thinking that if Odysseus has an opening left on his ship, I might be game for voyage or 2. Hey, it beats trying to avoid the gov syndicate. I am grateful for your pointing out what you did. Its one to store in the memory banks.
I am a war monger, you know ;-) but not a literal war. A mental and propaganda thought and idea war. My weapons are thoughts, ideas, reasoning, etc. You just filled my quiver with a few more arrows. An intellect is a terrible thing to waste. Some insist on wasting it anyway. You are a breath of fresh air. It was getting pretty stuffy in here ;-)
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteTrevor said, “Humans are much more likely to cooperate than kill each other. You can't build cities, corporation, or even barns alone. You need to cooperate.”
Trevor, so true. All human progress, all advances in civilization grow out of that powerful instinct to cooperate toward the betterment of all. <<
Trevor is a good source to quote. He, too, is not afraid to think as well as feel. You can do both at the same time, regardless of the claims of some.
I am going to adjust this idea just a little. In history as well as many archaeological excavations, we have too much evidence that humans enjoy war as much if not more than cooperation. War allows one to suspend any sort of respect for other human beings. How easy to rape in war. Steal in war. Kill in war. One battle and its all yours . . . if you win, of course. Someone always appears to win while another clearly loses. But winners may not win as much as they think. War harms aggressors and victors as much as it does the defeated. The defeat of the victors is disguised as victory. Our eyes are so good at deceiving ourselves.
I say all advances have been ultimately brought about by war. A peaceful people might create something, but then war mongers take it over. Enslavement grows as empires grow. We are forced to work to produce for others. Cooperation? Forced labor is how I see it. Our world revolves around mandatory force. Cooperation would be good but it is also very rare.
Sorry to be a kill joy and rain on everyone’s parade but psychology can only move forward if we truly see things as they truly are. It does not stop with internal healing. It must grow beyond that to something much bigger.
Hi Jacquie
ReplyDeleteDon't you think that suggesting that men feel able to stop violence or other forms of abuse in a relationship such as emotional abuse is sexist? I know of men who put up with a great deal with regards to emotional abuse. I have a friend whose wife is rather tall and the last time they visited us she made the pretence of hitting him in front of the rest of us. He shrugged it off but looked humiliated and hurt. They have two kids and he stays because of the kids. If anyone challanges her she uses tears and upset to mask what is going on. She is not a pleasant human being. I do feel that there is a societal pressure that suggests that men are more able to cope with this kind of thing and I do feel that that pressure lets down both men and women. I think that is the same pressure which creates the culture of men like John Wayne who had to tough it out and then die of a heart attack. It is not fair on men. I feel that this kind of stereotyping is just as damaging as the role of sex object that femenism fought against in the 970's.
Hi all & Trevor,
ReplyDeleteOn the hot potato of gender:
Matriarchal Symbiosis.
Mothers who can not find the support necessary (loving fathers/spouses & extended family) for their daughters to separate from them pass on a bondage in the form of a continual desire in the daughter to return to the loving embrace of her mother.
Furthermore (I conjecture), where there is birth or gestational trauma repressed in the daughter then the symbiosis is complete because neither party (mother & daughter) are even remotely aware of the 'resonance' between themselves that keeps it going.
Neilsen (who is a feminist and writes in favour of Father / Daughter relationships) reports that 75% of divorces are initiated by the woman. Since approximately 50% of all children are girls then it follows that a significant proportion of marriage failures originates in un-addressed matriarchal symbiosis and particularly where there is gestational trauma in the daughter.
I am proposing there is a double bind at work here in which the one person (the father) who could help the daughter become separate from the mother is rejected precisely because his 'role' (if allowed to follow its' true course) would expose the trauma and the symbiotic exploitation (sub- consciously) of it by the mother.
Thus because the 'Law' promotes the mother as the 'Primary Carer' the symbiotically fused mother need look no further than the state legal system to promote the continuance of this:
'Matriarchal Kinship'.
Women become automatic members of this club with the appearance of their first child and if that first child is a daughter then membership is elevated to 'Elite' status.
The key symptom is a 'triumphal attitude' in the relationship. By this I mean the mother and the daughter live together in a triumph, they win, all the time. Also this relationship has been revered throughout history (regardless of which sex happens to dominate the cultural/legal system at the time).
Men, fathers, stand back in awe and wonder at this "relationship on a pedestal" between mother and daughter. It is invincible, impenetrable and most of all imperceptible to the women themselves who bask in the glory of being female, being progenerators, being triumphant.
You can observe these women & daughter relations in shopping malls the western world over, lipstick, jewellery, sexy clothes, you name it, the triumphal march of the feminine drives a multi trillion dollar global business in looking good and being the best next breeders, all stage managed by 'Mom'.
70 years ago when men were automatically the 'primary carers' women & daughters were shat on and the whole thing worked the other way around.
Men narcisistically driving their sons into a triumphal elite club of money & military might.
Neilsen is trying to promote a "Shared Parenting Bill".
Roll on Shared Parenting, that's what I say.
Paul G.
Richard: When I was a child there were no drugs.....so to speak; none of the drugs that exist today. My childhood was before penicillin and antibiotics. art
ReplyDeleteANdrew: The day you produce GOD is the day I leave the planet. art
ReplyDeleteFrank: The legacy program is by Dr. France, it is a great amount of work. art.
ReplyDeleteArt,
ReplyDeleteAnd? Is the legacy program somthing I can get hold of?
Frank,
Art,
ReplyDeleteI have raised a question at SBU (knowledge center for health care) concerning the primal therapy’s justification here in Sweden… it will take place sometime early next year. I think the program on the legacy would fill a grate task to be convincing. I will let you know more about it… also if some of you could make a different to be present? I have a case number if you are interested. Excuse my svengelsa used in such an important matter.
Frank
Apollo:
ReplyDelete“What I would say there is that I seriously doubt those men did not know what they were doing.”
These man knew exactly know what they were doing – they satisfied their perverted need. As one US-soldier said, “German women have big, sexy breasts”
.
They know what they did, because in post WWII Germany, of the 68'000 fatherless children produced by occupying solders, 80% were Americans, and most were dumped in orphanages, and many are still looking for their father.
As an investigation found out, nearly all of these children were the result of rape. Mothers who were not raped and had children by the occupying forces raised their children at home. However there is no official number regarding how many single mothers raised their children where the fathers promised to come back, but never showed up again.
About the “Etrusker” you will find literature at: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Etruscan+language%22
Naturaly there is extensive material (UNI research)available in German language.
Sieglinde
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteWhat you describe sounds much like the Mary Shelley novel on Frankenstein’s monster. When we become the judges and deciders of what would be best for future genetic organisms (humans), based on past experience, is downright terrifying. I’m with Arthur. I’d want out fast.
But I also find your interpretation of “God” interesting. Cleary not liking the idea of God, you mold him into something tyrannical , egotistical and bring him down to the level of a human being. Ouch! You aim pretty low, huh? I would hope that anyone dreaming up what a God could be or should be, could do a little better than that. We often create images that reflect ourselves. I’ll leave it at that.
But as for the reality of recreating humans in a super computer, at the moment, I find that a little far fetched. While it is possible that they know and understand far more about our brains in classified research (top secret- not for public knowledge) than we are allowed to know, it is also possible they know far too little yet and may never know.
Part of the problem is that when mad men run the whole system and those mad men are filled with neurotic pain, there is the danger that the world and our species may not survive long enough to finish their “projects” such as the one you refer to.
How interesting, too, that while they ponder to understand the mind as something to replicate and manipulate, and not likely for the better or noble reasons, they refuse to look inside themselves or ponder their own behavior. What a marvelous contradiction these mad men and their scientists are.
Ah, the brave new world. Be careful what you ask for, because you could very well get it. It’s a very long road that has no turns in it ;-)
Rather than recreate humans in any form, I’d like to see us treat the ones we already have with more dignity and compassion. And they call me a mad man ;-)
Richard said: my theory on love wasn't quite correct.
ReplyDeleteIt still might need some more adjusting. I noted some criticisms of Art and a few others, science types. I am a bit puzzled about it all. Einstein was quite compassionate and antiwar as well. But Art has always been pro love and that is good. Art does discuss the effects of behavior, but also their internal cause. I have always been willing to criticize perceived errors, but Art’s over all theory seems pretty good to me. I don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
But I get this sense of your definition of love as being overly romanticized and objectified to a near religious levels. Art showed it as a lot more simple, really. It is supplying the right needs at the right time to produce the right result, which sort of perpetuates itself, afterward. Behavior creates those feelings you mention. A kiss on the cheek can feel like love. It really is that simple and profound. If only we could fix all pain in the world at the same time. In some ways, love is just the absence of pain and conflict within.
Then we could think better and organize our planet better. Yes, the cortex could become a friend, rather than something to fear or despise. Imagine that!
Remember what I said about simplicity? Oh, yeah, you did not like that one. Sorry. But I would offer that if you think or feel like you see better than either one of us, it comes off smelling like Elitism, which I have commented on at times. I guess I’d like to see more explanation of how your theory differs from Art’s. I’m not seeing it at present.
I suggested earlier that maybe "we are genetically hard wired not to kill." But, are we also hard wired for a time to kill?
ReplyDeleteSo what do you do if you are a drafted peasant staring eyeball to eyeball with another drafted peasant. You feel no hate nor anger. In the man's eyes before you, you sense no anger, no hate. You are both armed and trained to the teeth. And you say to yourself, "It's you or me."
I have pondered, and re-visited, the unmistakable look in those eyes, the veins in those eyes many times over the past 41 years. I have thought, if it was just a "you or me" situation, then I probably should not have survived. First, despite all of shrink-driven military training, it just was just not in my heart to kill - especially if unnecessary.
Indeed, if it was just the two of us on a lonely field in isolation, we might have tried to settle our ways just with instinctive body language - and somehow agreed to part. Such stories abound on the front lines of war.
So what other dynamic might be operating there - that helped me survive ?
Let me fill in a back story. It was nearing nightfall, our ambush patrol needed to secure a strange new area for our all night operation. The enemy soldiers were both within our midst and at our backs in bunker-tunnels such as the one I was now in. Tactically, we were infiltrated by the enemy and faced with shrinking time to secure a small area in which to defend ourselves.
That back story is the game changer.
The total game iss now changed to, "It's you and your buddies, or me and my buddies."
Genetically, I was also hard wired to defend the tribe - in this case my band of brothers - who repeatedly demonstrated their loyalty and trust toward me. Whatever, our sharply different religious backgrounds, whatever the deeply different emotional baggage we carried in our rucksacks [for war, anti war, for God , no God, etc ], repeatedly we put our lives on the line for each other.
We knew each other intimately. My buddies understood me far more deeply than my own brothers. In turn, I knew who would break down - and need some help. Who would always be there at my back.
We were so deeply driven by an instinct to define and thus defend the mini "tribe," we openly defied major Army regulations, just to define ourselves as a "tribe" dramatically separate from the "squad, platoon, company, etc" tribes so formally defined by the military.
I for one painted a large white peace symbol on the side of my rifle butt, for both the enemy as well as our commanding officers to see. On our helmets, we penned our motley beliefs. "God, country..." Others said, "Give peace a chance." We looked more like a band of guerrillas, than a U.S. Army Squad.
We were - unwittingly - going to extremes to define our selves within our immediate military environment. "Our mini tribe" evolved its own appearance, its own culture, it own ethos, as we defined the final tribe with whom most of us fully expected to end our last days.
And that made all the difference. I did for my band of brothers what I might hesitate to do to save myself.
Unlike WWI, and WWII, the Vietnam war was a campaign of small units, usually operating alone for days at a time. A small scale, sergeant led, guerilla war. A perfect laboratory in which tribal instincts might emerge - if tribal genetics exist.
Ironically, these powerful and cooperative instincts are, I believe the same genetically driven, tribal characters and behaviors that would in happier times, leads us to form the teams that build buildings, create villages, and fabricate great organization that bring prosperity to our fellow man. The great "cooperative" achievements that Trevor spoke of.
Indeed, the great advances in civilization come not during war, but following a major war - which happens to be a time of relative peace where cooperative genetics and team genetics emerge once again.
Hi Paul
ReplyDeleteI find what you wrote very interesting and pertinent. "Roll on shared parenting" so true.
However what I would argue is that prior to the couple becoming Parents they need to understand themselves and any issue they have with each other etc. A balanced relationship is all because so much of what we learn as children is from our observations of our Parents relationship and the roles that young men and women take up is as a direct result of that Parental Relationship I suppose. I reckon the whole of human history has been a roller coaster of one sex or the other dominating to the detriment of both. I remember an article in one of my wife's magazines about a famous 1970's star who had been a heroin addict. The magazine heaped great praise on this woman's daughter because the daughter had been strong and looked after her Mother and her Mother had said how good the daughter was to talk to. The magazine held this up as the perfect Mother Daughter relationship. I feel that the powerful duo of Mother/Daughter is so much to do with the Mother looking for her own Mother's love from the Daughter and therefore the Father cannot help any break with the Mother because it is perhaps the dysfunctional Mother who has to recognise her own unmet childhood needs that is driving this dysfunctional relationship. I have an Aunt in her 60's who told me that her own Mother was very difficult to talk to ie she was not interested in her daughters feelings. Unbeknown to my Aunt I know that she regularly goes to her own younger Daughter who has just become a Mother in floods of tears saying how unhappy she is and turning her Daughter into a Mother figure when she needs to be trying to give all her love to her children and how does she react? By screaming at her husband to get him to do things and leaving her babies to cry out at night. That same Aunt paid for my male cousin's therapy (he's tried to kill himself a few times) but on the proviso that he stay in close contact with the family. When he did'nt she cut off the payments. Has she had the guts to go see a therapist to try and understand her problems. Ofcourse not! There is a phrase "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". A Mother (or Father) who rules the family and thinks she knows best for everyone but refuses to aknowledge her own dysfunctions but due to her top position in the hyrarchy is a dictator. The phrase "Mother knows best" is a sacrosanct one in our culture and many Mothers think they know best for everyone else in their lives too and greater society. Quite obviously many Mothers do not know best but only what they experienced as embryo's, tiny babies and children and have to see that experience as great and wonderful otherwise they have to face their own childhood pain so instead they force everyone to fit into theirr view of the world just like Mao or Hitler or Stalin. As Alice Miller wrote on page 9 of Drama of being Child "There was a Mother who at the core was emotionally insecure (my Aunt) and who depended for her equilibrium on her child (and husband) behaving in a particular way. This Mother was able to hide her insecurity from her child and from everyone else behind a hard, authoritarian, even totalitarian facade". And I would argue that that facade can be hidden behind a sentimental (fake emotions) mask but woe betide anyone who tries to remove it. You would'nt want to meet Mrs God. That's my Aunt and quite a few other women I know and the husbands just knuckle down and do what is asked (dictated)with a shrug of the shoulders. I totally support equality of the sexes and that means both sexes recognising their dysfunctions because once that happens then perhaps real shared Parents beckons? The trouble is that because so much of Society is based on being a Victim many people avoid personal responsibility by saying "It's all men's fault or all women's fault, rather than saying lets talk!"
Hi,
ReplyDeleteJust to make sure you guys and gals out there have all the right information on the aforementioned hot potato:
-"Disenfranchising, Demeaning and Demoralising Divorced Dads: A Review of the Literature, Dr. Linda Nielsen.
Journal of Divorce & Remarriage -1999,
vol. 31, pages 139 - 177.
Paul G.
Frank: The Legacy Program by Dr. France Janov should be ready to buy in June. Art.
ReplyDeleteFrank: Let us know. Art
ReplyDeleteHi planespotter, yes absolutely,
ReplyDeletethe problem is that most of us cannot know how repressed we are until our children come along and start telling us. And even then we don't f*****g listen properly.
Most of us parents have used our children and our relationships with the other adult to 're-en-act' our parental symbiosis or our sibling rivalry or both and other strange "issues" to boot.
Primal Theory offers an education to us all. There really aught to be a Primal Educational Revolution.
The F*****g TM lot are now offering meditation to ADHD kids in school and getting results but what about offering basic Primal for kids?
On telly the kids are petitioning us parents to stop smoking, so why can't we petition the schools to teach the kids to tell the parents stop traumatising the unborn.
It's too f*****g complicated isn't it?
Paul G.
Trevor,
ReplyDeleteI, for one, believe WWII was preventable, therefore, avoidable. It was sinister financiers who funded old Adolf in the 1st place. I note that Adolf and Borman managed to escape, when most of the cabinet did not. Were they double agents? I wonder. But those who have great influence throughout the world saw a great advantage to immersing most of the world into war.
Right after the war, we brought most of Germany’s scientists over here to launch our own advanced technologies such as rockets and the more secret UFO stuff. We then invented a COLD war to justify far greater “investment” in war tech at the taxpayer expense, of course. Wars are lies to justify what leaders want to do with us and get us to go along with it. “The only way to win, is not to play.” I took that from “War Games” back in the early 80s, was it?
Apollo, Trevor and all.
ReplyDeleteMy I share my view concerning WWII.
I have written a letter to the filmmaker about his movie "Nazi Hunt" which I would like to share with you all, since it reflects the results in a nutshell of my extensive study.
Dear Mr. Silvers,
First my compliments for the captivating documentary Nazi Hunt: Elusive Justice, a reality still denied by too many.
Even though it is not recognized yet, this documentary has a second part – Germany's post-war atrocities.
Because Justice was never fully served regarding the Nazis, human rights violations continued in post-war Germany and are today again swept under the carpet.
If the Nuremberg trials would have prosecuted all Nazi criminals, 800,000 postwar children in institutions from 1949 -1975 would have being spared despicable crimes and suffering.
While Germany formally adopted the newly formed democracy in 1949, the old Nazi Zeitgeist continued everywhere.
Some of the old Nazis found employment as wardens for children of all ages in religious institutions. There they continued, uncontrolled by any authorities, their Nazi-methods of horror by physically, psychologically, and sexually abusing children. Some institutionalized children in the booming, democratic, post-war economy were lent out as slave laborers to companies such as Braun, Siemens, VW and many other well-known companies. Other children worked for the religious institutions in on-site businesses. Proper education was denied and only 1 % received higher education. Other children in institutions were used as medical guinea pigs or were declared mentally retarded, even though they were not. In addition, children disappeared without a trace and most records from victims were destroyed or conveniently altered.
Today almost all of these victims suffer from the psychological long-term effects and nearly all exist on welfare or near poverty.
For years, some of the “less psychologically damaged” have tried to seek Justice to no avail.
Finally in 2006 a petition was filed asking the German government to investigate these alleged atrocities. The government, no longer able to muffle the swelling voices, formed in 2008, a round table, called “the commission of truth”.
From the beginning the round table was not interested in digging, or probably instructed, not to reveal the guilty and asked to not admit human rights violations and slave labor. Their effort was in controlling eventual damage the government could suffer, after turning a blind eye for 4 decades to the ongoing and severe abuse in institutions, and who would be held responsible for neglecting their duty as an overseer of all children in institutions.
Instead of having a neutral investigation as the victims requested, the German government formed the round table, and set in place a former Christian pastor and former politician, Dr. Antje Vollmer. This round table constellation did not allow the victims to place an attorney as representative. Only 9 victims who experienced less severe suffering were allowed to present their case. Other stories were silently collected but nowhere mentioned. Conveniently, records could not be found to be used as evidence that the victims told the truth. From the beginning, all signs pointed toward a final cover-up by the German Government.
Later, in 2010, proof of the cover-up was manifested in the final report the round table released after two years.
continue
part II
ReplyDeleteThe round table never revealed the guilty, never asked if they are still alive and avoided with all might the admission of human rights violation. In other words, the final report was for all victims adding on insult to injury. The statute of limitations was used as a shield to cover up the crime against innocent children and to protect the religious organizations, who employed at the time these former Nazis and, protect them today. Universities for social science were contracted to present their findings according to selected and limited material, which became guidelines for further procedure.
To everybody's surprise a 120 Million Euro fund was announced at the last round table meeting. This fund is supposed to satisfy the “needs of possibly 50,000 victims still alive. The Government calls this fund compensation. In reality, this fund will, eventually in 2012, for those few who qualify, pay only the social security these slave employers did not pay at the time, as the law requested. Graciously, psychotherapy will be granted, if victims ask.
Naturally the churches and umbrella organization of the institutions agreed in a hurry to this wholesale deal, because each has to pay only about 40 Millions into the fund. An interesting investigation would be to find out how much these religious institutions profited from the child-slaves.
The catch however is, if victims receive any help from the fund, they must sign a paper that they renounce any legal action against the religious institutions where they were abused.
And, as in the Third Reich, society again played their role as blind and, contributed by doing nothing, then and today, against these post-war human rights atrocities, or even agreed on how children in institutions were mistreated and abused. These children were called bastards, low-life, unworthy to live among the new, democratic Germans. For this reason, these outcasts had to be removed (most of them by court orders) from the sight of society.
The left party petitioned for an amendment of the law so victims could sue for compensation, in case they were denied money from the fund, but it was dismissed by the German Parliament. What that really means is the victims were without rights as children and now again have no right to redress. I speak to you as one of those victims. http://www.aaacworld.org/publication/from_the_frying_pan_to_hell.htm
Here we see how the pattern of the past repeats itself –if crimes of the past remain unpunished, the foundation is prepared for injustice to continue.
My many attempts to bring the German government to the ICC for human rights violations have failed. In spite of having collected many victims stories of abuse, including my own, I could not find an attorney who is willing to go against a democratic country in “good standing” with the rest of the world.
Other attempts on my part to have the truth revealed in a documentary, failed as well. However, I can’t give up, because the damage done to me and hundreds of thousands other childhood victims is irreparable and Justice needs to be done.
Victims ask today – has Germany left the Nazi-Zeitgeist behind and become a democracy? If yes, why they do they still deny us Justice for the suffering we have endured and still suffer.
The biggest injustice perhaps, does not lay in refusing recognition to victims, but how it becomes a new crime as perpetrators are protected in a failed system.
Sincerely,
Sieglinde Alexander
Sieglinde: Not a surprise. Every country with a government to protect itself does exactly the same. art
ReplyDeleteDr. Janov,
ReplyDeleteyou are right. However all other countries (as stiff as they are) have given "something" to their victims - not the psychopathic Germans.
I must continue the fight. As they say: "its not over until the fat lady sings".
Sieglinde
http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/confusion/?eiid=
ReplyDeleteConfusion
December 28, 2011 by Bob Livingston
How our minds are conditioned and controlled: If a person believes a “fact” long enough, he or she cannot ponder or contemplate information or a question that challenges the fact. The mind simply cannot process information that conflicts with previously accepted data. Prior conditioning is difficult to challenge.
The same is true if we believe a lie long enough. We cannot ponder or contemplate information that challenges the lie, even if the lie is lethal, such as “fluoride prevents cavities.”
Psychologists call this quirk of human nature cognitive dissonance. It means the rejection of information not in harmony with previous beliefs. I have written about this before. Even when pointed out to people, they refuse to see it. Note the comments below the linked article.
Confusion is achieved when propaganda injects two opposing thoughts at the same time. The elites use it to great advantage.
http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/cognitive-dissonance/
Cognitive Dissonance
October 10, 2011 by Bob Livingston
Cognitive dissonance is a psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously. Totalitarian regimes are successful when their subjects reach that state.
SWA,
ReplyDeleteThat was a very good report on post war Germany. I would like to point out that (formerly West) Germany has been an occupied nation since its surrender in 45 or 46 was it? The USA has been the occupying force to this very day, I believe. So while Germans turned a blind eye to continued atrocities, others also share some of that blame.
Also of consequence is that Hitler had created a very cozy relationship between big business and industry and the German Reich-government. Any time you put the fox (money) in charge of the henhouse (little people mass majority), you end up with an abuse of power that knows no limits.
We in the USA also treated orphans poorly. All over the USA, people had kids out of wedlock or could not afford to keep them. They were dumped into orphanages in major cities. I have 3 books on “Orphan Trains” that hauled these kids off like human cargo to live and WORK on farms. They were slaves in every sense of the word. We did not abolish slavery in any way here in the USA, despite having killed 650,000 men combined in that “Civil War.”
My father was raised in Canada and had an abusive neighbor who mistreated on of the “slave” girls lent out to her by similar organizations that “cared” about kids. The girl killed herself. Virtually the only option left. Yet, no one really said anything about it. The woman was prominent in the community and even taught Sunday school. The hypocrisy never ends.
Really, no matter what country you want to reference, the atrocities you could find would horrify us all. You story is very good but not unique or isolated by any means, sadly. Pain continually builds and accumulates. We are approaching a very serious problem not far from exploding. And it does not even require explosives. It is human nature raging out of control. When humans hit the boiling point, they are no longer rational beings. Manic rage goes forth. Its not very pretty.
War, all by itself, is quite the atrocity. We have every type and variety here on planet earth. A shame that not more have recognized what we do here. But I ask all to consider this! If we help cover over or cover up corruption and cruelty of any type, then we are part of the problem, not the solution. If we deny corruption, we enable it.
apollo
ReplyDeletethese atrocities were committed in post-war Germany, my country of birth that adopted democracy in 1949 and, in 1948 signed the treaty of human rights act. No,Germany is no longer occupied by the US.
Yes, I know all about how the world abuses and enslaves its children. Australia even sold its children until the 60's into slavery.
The reason I know is, I have supported since 1998 many countries in revealing the atrocities against children. I also know of the orphans in the US, especially the orphanage “White House” in Florida.
I suggest, never generalize abuse. If we say it’s happened everywhere, we are already primed to accept it as is, without being willing to intervene. I still hope that people do more than observing this situation that is indeed worldwide.
Apollo, I know you understand that there is a BIG difference between knowing about it and being one of them.
Sieglinde
SWA,
ReplyDeleteNever generalize abuse? It looks a little different to me. I don’t generalize and certainly do not trivialize, but I do broaden the scope and scale of the abuse. To point out one man’s or nation’s crimes, while ignoring 50 others, is not what I would call fair. To me, the scale is so big and out of control, it reminds me of a line from Apocalypse Now, where the operative (Martin Sheen) was to hunt down a killer, a renegade solider, played by Brando. Sheen as puzzled as hunting down killers or whatever it was that he was accused of, Sheen’s character described it as like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
Maybe this picture also illustrates my point a little.
Children all over the world are abused on a horrible scale and is met everywhere with indifference. The thing is, you and I have little power or control. On the other hand, wealthy bankers, rich industrialists, prominent politicians, these all have substantially more power and control than I and 1 million of my closest friends could ever muster.
Some things are out of my control and beyond my control. You won’t see me holding up the little umbrella the coyote often employs. Remember that dike we spoke of? Have you ever seen some of the attempted interventions? Have you noticed the typical run arounds and BS red tape and excuses. There is no justice or decency left in the world.
I am not calloused or indifferent but I know when I am completely overwhelmed and out numbered. What is clear to me is that if there is no God, there certainly is no hope because primal pain is now a raging forest fire for which there no longer is any quenching.
The orphans I referred to in the USA were back in the latter 1800s and early 20th century. Yet, it is said that this was God’s nation and still is. I guess God does not have very high standards anymore. Either that, or someone does not think God is smart enough not to pick a nation so void of morality or to pick any nation, as if He needed one in the 1st place. I had heard He was all powerful.
I wanted to clarify something. Is it true there are no more US troops in Germany? I ask cause there are so many nations with US forces stationed in them, like Roman garrisons, that its hard to find a nation that has no USA troops.
My goal is to alert people to pursue a greater awareness of what is going on around them. Without alertness and awareness, and remaining hypnotized, we have no hope. The 1st step is to wake up. If I can’t accomplish that, I can do nothing else, either. Would you agree?
Apollo,
ReplyDeleteThe only difference I see between the 1800’s and today, is that the abuse in many forms has escalated. Just think about how many children were born to mothers who got high while pregnant in the late 50’s and 60’s. These Hippy-drug-children (baby-boomers) are the majorities today with enormous neuro-psychological damage.
Just yesterday, a 35 year old man, high on meth was arrested because he raped and killed a one month old baby.
Think about the children who had to work in the 1900’s (they worked as slave laborers until 1975 in many countries) and there was no formula. Mothers had to breastfeed and there were no incubators and very little drugs for mothers to poison the child’s brain. I see this as a big advantage (I don’t mean it was good) compared to today's abuse.
You say you like to bring awareness.
Yes we need to be alerted, - but it is all out there, readable on the internet, if someone is really interested. But they are not!!!!! Most people have to deal with their own unfulfilled needs and don’t want to engage in other peoples problems. In fact, they actively avoid the subject. That is what I was told when I started my website in 1998.
Try "google alert" and include all key words. You will be floated with abuse information.
In Germany there are no more soldiers. There are only a few US hospitals and embassies. All troops had to leave between 1999 and 2002 after Germany paid off the loan provided by the Marshal Plan.
Sieglinde
SWA,
ReplyDeleteI would with you absolutely, that abuse has escalated in our day. We just cover it over more. Never before have our actions so completely contradicted what we say and promote in the media, which we are supposed to accept as reality, and why not, we always have, right? I exclude you and me, of course and some others here.
SWA said>> These Hippy-drug-children (baby-boomers) are the majorities today with enormous neuro-psychological damage.
And their kids are really pain infested. The world is far more harsh and opportunity-free (there is none left). And they have never had more lies to wade through than now. I tried to post a picture of Wile E. Coyote holding up his little umbrella but I guess we can not post picture. Damn shame since that picture is priceless. Warner Bros made great cartoons.
SWA >>I see this as a big advantage (I don’t mean it was good) compared to today's abuse.
You are absolutely right. The past was horrible, but most in the USA have not forgotten it because they never knew of it to begin with. Unknown horror is horror which can not be accounted for or will be accounted for. And whether God is real or not, He does not deseve the blame for that. I have no doubt that we agree that those who forget or ignore history are doomed to repeat it and make it worse.
Now believe it or not, I am a little bit of an optimist as well as a dreary realist. Hey, it’s a tough job but someone has to do it ;-) I am glad to hear the troops are gone though I am sure surveillance of some sort remains, there as well as everywhere else.
As you might have found, many do not appreciate being “alerted” and brought to any sort of conscious awareness or dislodged from their hypnotic state. I definitely respect your posts and concerns. I address you as SWA because it is shorter to type. I am lazy and my keyboard now fights me.
For me, outside awareness is as vital as inside examination, and if possible, awareness, too, as Arthur might define it. He has some definitions that vary with the mainstream so clarification is sometimes needed. I will call it holistic awareness or as close to it as circumstance will let me get for now.