tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post5548787950469455222..comments2024-02-11T18:16:53.445-08:00Comments on Janov's Reflections on the Human Condition: The Simple Truth is Revolutionary: On Vital Signs in Primal TherapyArthur Janovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16709863014923629409noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-35849110679773169682009-12-04T01:04:20.769-08:002009-12-04T01:04:20.769-08:00Being political is necessary cause we all live in ...Being political is necessary cause we all live in this world. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-74281571226545098502009-12-03T14:00:36.654-08:002009-12-03T14:00:36.654-08:00Macor22:
The problem with left-wingers is they te...Macor22:<br /><br />The problem with left-wingers is they tend to create the very poverty class that needs all that support in the first place.<br /><br />Left-wing versus right-wing? It is all bullshit. There is only the right thing to do - government staying out of peoples lives except in exceptional circumstances, not playing funny games with the labour market that forces people to sell their labour for an appallingly low price, and only helping people out when they really need the help - but yes, certainly helping them out in those circumstances.<br /><br />After that it's just big fat empty debate that stops people from developing a considered and reasonable understanding of public policy. We're all supposed to just "join a camp" rather than demand respectable policies.<br /><br />-Hope I'm not getting too political here Dr Janov?Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-50010629484681959012009-12-01T16:45:49.681-08:002009-12-01T16:45:49.681-08:00Yeah I am NO fan of Ayn Rand either! Her message t...Yeah I am NO fan of Ayn Rand either! Her message to the unemployed is : " DIE if you can`t make it; why should my taxes support you on welfare?! And if you are sick and can't afford health care, tough! Stay sick" . There is a well-known LA psychologist and author named Nathaniel Branden who was her close disciple, and then broke from her. But he still spouts a sick pro-capitalist fundamentalist line in his books .There has to be some balance between the socialist ideals and the freedom to exchange. The whole world is groping towards that with much debate and experimentation. Luckily we have edged away from the nuclear confrontation that could have destroyed a good part of the whole world because of this capitalist-socialist debate! Marcomacor22https://www.blogger.com/profile/00652948318839690382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-88514127935032338762009-11-28T11:39:26.767-08:002009-11-28T11:39:26.767-08:00One last thought Kaz. When I see what outsiders ...One last thought Kaz. When I see what outsiders do to my therapy I cringe. It is no less true about socialism, a good system turned to shit by the corrupt. art janov I am not a fan of Ayn Rand.Arthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-61021334139448852622009-11-28T11:38:36.335-08:002009-11-28T11:38:36.335-08:00Jack: How very kind. I too love Shakespeare. Am n...Jack: How very kind. I too love Shakespeare. Am now reading and rereading The Rape of Lucretia. There are insights there that are mind-blowing. The great great genius. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-73010195655346569082009-11-28T11:34:08.003-08:002009-11-28T11:34:08.003-08:00Any decent system has to grow organically from wel...Any decent system has to grow organically from well people. Otherwise neurotics get corrupted and turn it to shit. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-21181552314349318992009-11-27T22:39:04.693-08:002009-11-27T22:39:04.693-08:00For all the viability and validity of Primal Thera...For all the viability and validity of Primal Therapy, in the end, therapy is attempting to "mend the already damaged" When Art departs (if he goes before me) I will cry for my loss of one of my two heroes. The first one is already gone: Shakespeare. Sadly, I suspect there will not be successor to Art and as a consequence there will perhaps be many off shoots of Primal Therapy. However effective any of them will be, it will still be "attempting to mend the already damaged". We need prevention, and from what, to me, is Arthur Janov's genius and greatest contribution to mankind is; his formulation of Primal Theory. The theory implies that it is our child-rearing practices that cause our problems. Can we extrapolate from his theory a way to begin to not damage the children of tomorrow?. I feel it could, and hope it might.Jack Waddingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06427501529242639591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-43448972642433906622009-11-27T22:00:12.847-08:002009-11-27T22:00:12.847-08:00"You know Marx never directed his efforts in ..."You know Marx never directed his efforts in trying to change the capitalists. He aimed at the exploited by capitalists."<br /><br /><br /><br />I think the word exploitation is a psychological projection of Marx's own ideology by creating the exact situation he academically claimed to save people from. Not to mention his reponsibility for the deaths of 100 million people (www.victimsofcommunism.org) In the socialist gulags/forced labor prison camps people were truly exploited because were forced to work whether they wanted to or not under a monopoly of one government employer with no other competing employers. They had to do whatever the intellectuals wanted them to.<br /><br />His so called exploitation theory fell apart by any empirical test of noticing the simple fact that in a coercion free market employers in competition with each other, unlike the government, cannot set wages no matter how hard they try. Employees are free to work for another employer commensurate with the value they can provide. So much so that now there are now contracts bound by time to prevent the employee from exploiting the helpless employer. <br /><br />The word exploitation as used is a misnomer as well, characteristic of Marx's shameless linguistic abuse. In that sense, anyone that provides anything of value to another person such as a grocery store, will be said to be exploiting peoples hunger. But they don't make people more hungry, they voluntarily offer them products to make them full and satisfied.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />"I try to aim at the hurting people and hope one day that the professionals will get on board."<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />That sounds like a solid plan Dr. Janov, it certainly is the case me. However in the context of Marx, it is not a movement of the people!!!!! Pushers of coercion are ALwAYS from the top not the bottom. Reminds me of a quote:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />"When one observes the nightmare of the desperate efforts made by hundreds of thousands of people struggling to escape from the socialized countries, to escape over barbed-wire fences, under machine-gun fire—one can no longer believe that socialism, in any of its forms, is motivated by benevolence and by the desire to achieve men’s welfare.<br /><br />No man of authentic benevolence could evade or ignore so great a horror on so vast a scale.<br /><br />Socialism is not a movement of the people. It is a movement of the intellectuals, originated, led and controlled by the intellectuals, carried by them out of their stuffy ivory towers into those bloody fields of practice where they unite with their allies and executors: the thugs."<br /><br />-Ayn RandKazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00688350964818932862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-71692077837311125312009-11-26T13:40:02.946-08:002009-11-26T13:40:02.946-08:00....Hope I'm not over-beating the drum, but I .......Hope I'm not over-beating the drum, but I wanted to send this comment too,<br /><br />Walden and everyone,<br /><br />When a new technology or system of any given type develops, it usually develops with aggresive progress in the early stages and then it tapers off with more 'refinement level' progress as it gets closer to its natural optimum (or state of perfection, if you like). So is Primal Therapy 50%, 90% or 95% the way there? I don't know. And neither do most people on this blog because we're looking from the outside in, and you obviously have to be on the inside (with the right experience) to answer a question like that.<br /><br />My point? If is so happens that PT is about 90% perfected or more, then it's not going to make any "giant leaps" in terms of its internal progress. A "revolution" will have more to do with Infiltration, than development. And if thast is the case then yes, Primal Therapy must be competitive with the staus quo - not compromised by it.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-53034504018521283992009-11-26T12:28:51.162-08:002009-11-26T12:28:51.162-08:00What you don't want is so-called democratic te...What you don't want is so-called democratic tendencies to leave the way open to everyone and all therapies. If a therapy is scientific and is effective, stay with it and do not invite the world in in order to assuage some sense of being democratic. Art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-49294126817119774332009-11-26T07:21:46.819-08:002009-11-26T07:21:46.819-08:00Walden,
As a prospective patient, I would be far ...Walden,<br /><br />As a prospective patient, I would be far more worried about Arthur's PT turning into a mock version of itself, in response to his departure. That is, if it started to confuse itself with state-of-the-art cognitive philosophies which are probably completely detached from the real business of getting me into my pain.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-60925864730762813292009-11-26T00:46:40.257-08:002009-11-26T00:46:40.257-08:00Walden: Well I guess I now have to jump off a brid...Walden: Well I guess I now have to jump off a bridge. You know Marx never directed his efforts in trying to change the capitalists. He aimed at the exploited by capitalists. I try to aim at the hurting people and hope one day that the professionals will get on board. It aint gonna happen. You know , if you leave open other approaches you get what you get in the treatment of addiction by Promises. A hodge podge of many modes of therapy none of which are effective, but the hope is that if you pile on one thing after another there is bound to be progress. Tell me one person who could be part of meaningful change that we have neglected; since you have no idea what we have done or who we have reached out to it is better to ask than advise. art janov.Arthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-15621496916083743532009-11-25T16:14:05.797-08:002009-11-25T16:14:05.797-08:00I hate to say this but I think the success of Prim...I hate to say this but I think the success of Primal Therapy will jump start when Arthur Janov departs. The staying of the current course will not achieve that. What is needed is the ability to accept the current state of the science for what it is and to make a roadmap that begins there and pushes forward in a way that does not alienate critical support. In contrast, the current course dismisses just about everyone who could be part of a meaningful change. It pits itself against a staged intractable foe and plays the helpless victim. It has appeal to a certain kind of damaged soul (you know who you are), and it makes no mark whatsoever on the rest of the people of the world.<br /><br />I hated saying that.<br /><br />WaldenWaldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10764833480863624204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-21684155298400039012009-11-24T12:06:08.143-08:002009-11-24T12:06:08.143-08:00OK I agree. It has to be someone who is long in o...OK I agree. It has to be someone who is long in our therapy. That is the problem. We don't need academics and intellectuals. The world has enough of those. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-57733292239279698582009-11-24T00:17:15.216-08:002009-11-24T00:17:15.216-08:00Dear Art,
In reply to that you wrote: "do I ...Dear Art,<br /><br />In reply to that you wrote: "do I need a successor?"<br /><br />No, you don't; but I am fairly sure that the availability of best practice primal therapy would be less likely to be maintained (for as long into the future) without someone (or more than one person) to fill your shoes. This "filling of shoes" would have to be about someone(s) being similar-enough to you in analytical style and in having the ability and tendency to stay on the course (toward the 'core of the PT kind of cure').Pbefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12801125543334132971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-19171741070791791092009-11-23T21:59:19.960-08:002009-11-23T21:59:19.960-08:00Pbef:
That's quite a compliment!
Would I be...Pbef:<br /><br />That's quite a compliment! <br /><br />Would I be an effective therapist? I really don't know. My relationship to all this (on the blog) is essentially academic. I have no compelling desire to be a therapist as such.<br /><br />When I hopefully get therapy I could maybe one day expand into it to participate in PT on some level (other than a patient)...but that is absolutely "open book". Though, I would certainly not want special treatment and I don't consider myself to have superior (relevant) capacity to others! But hey, like most of us I'm sure I have my talents.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-70325951159061928562009-11-23T13:01:00.141-08:002009-11-23T13:01:00.141-08:00Pbef: thanks. do I need a successor? AJPbef: thanks. do I need a successor? AJArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-14001318017697029542009-11-23T06:35:25.381-08:002009-11-23T06:35:25.381-08:00Art,
You ought to try to recruit Andrew Atkin. Pa...Art, <br />You ought to try to recruit Andrew Atkin. Pay him to train (if need be) to become your successor. People with brains like Andrew's don't grow on trees!Pbefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12801125543334132971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-51769151988445198902009-11-23T00:43:44.803-08:002009-11-23T00:43:44.803-08:00Steven: I have no idea about the future except tha...Steven: I have no idea about the future except that I do know that it will be the therapy of the future. How could it not since it is the most efficacious therapy existant? It is also the therapy that dovetails with most current research, especially in neuroscience. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-45395245918152147692009-11-21T18:55:56.993-08:002009-11-21T18:55:56.993-08:00Hi Art
I was intrigued by this comment " I...Hi Art<br /><br />I was intrigued by this comment " In the last 5 years our therapy has progressed more than the thirty years before." I wonder if you could give us more details; also what do you see ahead for the therapy in the next 10 or even 20 years.<br /><br />Thanks<br />Stevenstevenbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16437667973248629322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-78795309714271921602009-11-20T15:13:49.310-08:002009-11-20T15:13:49.310-08:00Trevor:
You post was interesting - thanks.
On n...Trevor:<br /><br />You post was interesting - thanks. <br /><br />On normal:<br />With respect to normality I think many or most people develop an 'idea' of what normal is, then judge their sanity by their ability to live up to that idea. Of course that proves nothing of sanity in itself, and only the need to live up to a stereotype. And there's a whopping great price to pay for this kind of "normality" too - you tend deny yourself too much of what is real and right for you, with respect to whatever your neurotic and non-neurotic needs may be, and all in the name of living up to socially-abstract exceptions. <br /><br />I think one of the virtues of Janov's writings is that they help to clarify the meaning of 'normal' by providing a "cut-the-crap" penetration into the meaning and reality of human nature, at least in humanistic terms. I think it can help some people have to courage to be more true themselves and their own nature, by rightfully 'dethroning' what are often irrational expectations from others.<br /><br />Mock therapy: <br />In rememberer reading a small amount about a mock therapy (claimed PT-based) called "the feeling centre", or something like that. <br />I understand they had a hierarchy system where those who were supposedly more feeling had special conduct-rights *over* those who were less feeling. With such pathetic power-tripping codes like that I can understand how important it is to avoid B-grade therapy. Obviously there are some seriously erroneous practitioners out there!Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-66401249083656388062009-11-19T22:50:59.183-08:002009-11-19T22:50:59.183-08:00Trevor. Since we never had a clinic in Boston you...Trevor. Since we never had a clinic in Boston you obviously went to mock therapists and then think it is primal therapy, which gives us a bad name. We have been working on the neurology and biology of our work for decades. It is unfair to to lump us in with charlatans. Why not go to the right place, in the first place? When you say you tried Primal Therapy.....NO YOU DIDN'T. Nor did Alice Miller. I know her and know she did not go to us. Going there makes you sad because you wasted your life. I cannot control the world. I can control our therapy which I think is now state-of-the-art. dr. janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-84271726451779925182009-11-19T22:47:40.073-08:002009-11-19T22:47:40.073-08:00Trevor. thanks for the letter. I think the prima...Trevor. thanks for the letter. I think the primal therapy now is far more advanced scientifically and far more safe. I think finally after forty years of work we are getting a handle on it. In the last 5 years our therapy has progressed more than the thirty years before. It takes a long time to perfect a therapy, and it took us a long time. We try always to be careful, tell everyone it has nothing to do with screaming, etc. but still you build a ford before a rolls. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-89301329937535400792009-11-15T20:51:52.177-08:002009-11-15T20:51:52.177-08:00[I’m adding the following in case the prior post i...[I’m adding the following in case the prior post is accepted. It might help explain a bit more of my “Primal” experiences back in-the-day…and why current practices would have helped a lot.]<br /><br />What did I or anyone else know 35+ years ago other than "primaling" was powerful and seemed to offer hope? We thought the louder you screamed, the healthier you got. And faster. No years and years of couch talk. "Bellowers" become favorites, too, lording it over others in a Primal pecking order. “Ratpacking” those who found it hard to Primal was forbidden, yet common. <br /><br />Ultimately I stopped going. Not because I thought it was a hoax or harmful, but because I felt stuck. I felt like a failure, too afraid to FEEL. I’d opened Primal’s Pandoran box, but no longer trusted those in Group to support me. Instead, I stayed silent, urging others to scream louder-louder-louder. <br /><br />I felt doomed. I knew the power of feelings, but no longer felt able to go down deep into them. <br /><br />I could go into more detail but I'm not sure I can post here...or if this will even appear. I just know that I experienced SOMETHING profound the few times I felt safe enough…or scared enough…to “let go.” Unfortunately I also learned to be guarded around my therapist (of course, I’d chosen Mr. Hardass!). <br /><br />I also thought all the therapists had missed something that Arthur might have taught them if they’d trained with him. Maybe humility…or at least SOME respect for the powers they were dabbling with…and unleashing. <br /><br />But, as I said, credentials not only didn't seem to matter (part of the 60s opposition to the Establishment?), they were also deemed a “cop out.” Traditional medical metrics and practices were considered part of the problem. <br /><br />I certainly thought so. I didn’t question much of what I experienced. The screaming reminded me of my manic-depressive mother’s breakdowns. So I thought the way out was MORE craziness…like screaming ever-louder and longer. Like those movies about amnesia where the cure is being bonked on the head again. Or living in one of R. D. Laing’s “sane homes” where sick patients made fecal paintings to get healthy. <br /><br />If you didn’t get sane parenting, how do you know what’s normal? Your radar is miscalibrated. You’re like the abused protagonist in SLINGBLADE who thinks mustard-slathered biscuits are comfort food.<br /><br />I also thought others had the key to unlock my stuckedness. I still think that. Since others muck us up, it only makes sense that others might set us straight, too. The problem is, how do mucked-up people pick healthy helpers? I’d had few “enlightened witnesses” validating my feelings and experiences growing up. So I found it hard to believe that "trained" therapists could be effed-up, too. <br /><br />In many ways Primaling was like dropping acid: A way, albeit dangerous, out of the doldrums. A book for the era might have been titled, "We Were Young Once, And Stupid." <br /><br />The last thing I wanted, but needed, was calm. I was that fabled kid who ran away from a neglect-filled home into cold, rainy woods. Finally spotting the smoke of a cabin, I stood on its porch. A kind granny led me to a couch inside, wrapping me in blankets while she went to make cocoa. When she came back I was gone. It was too painful to stay and start thawing out emotionally. To feel her warmth and care I’d have to also feel the years of neglect and cold. It was too much to risk. I’d cared for a crazy mother, after all. To cope I’d stuffed my feelings. Who’d catch ME if I let go? I thought by therapist and fellow Group members would. Mostly they badgered and shamed.Trevorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14374461848986737683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-85710785523363224672009-11-15T20:43:30.389-08:002009-11-15T20:43:30.389-08:00Not sure if I can post here, but what the hey. It&...Not sure if I can post here, but what the hey. It's worth a shot.<br /><br />I tried Primal Therapy in Boston during the early 70s. Having recently read a lot of Alice Miller (whom I LOVE), I think I was retraumatized. Alice tried Primal, too, though I don’t think in California. She found much to like, but became disillusioned when the therapist she'd endorsed was accused of having sex with his female patients. She also came to believe that venting deep feelings alone was not enough; they had to be integrated with cognition, too.<br /><br />Anyway, there were originally 4 therapists in the practice I frequented. In retrospect, they were a motley crew, akin to those who ran the infamous Center for Feeling Therapy (http://tinyurl.com/yld88fa). All had been trained by Daniel Casriel in NYC: A couple; the married woman's brother; and all 3's friend. <br /><br />Early on the brother and sister parted ways for unknown reasons. Two different “schools” ensued. <br /><br />Soon after, the wife separated from her still-leading-groups husband. She started having sex with some of her "patients." <br /><br />The 4th "friend" (a mythic Great Santini-like tough-guy) also began sleeping with some of HIS clients. It also turned out that he’d slept with the then-married female therapist back in New York. <br /><br />In short: A practical and ethical mess. <br /><br />Still, in those post-Sixties times, none of that seemed to matter. What were boundaries after all, but “bourgeois” contrivances of The Man? We paying clients felt in no position to question those in charge. We believed their warning that Primal Therapy was our one and only hope. Besides, they seemed to have their shite together: Marriages (sort of), fancy cars, nice homes in the burbs, etc. We, on the other hand, were lost souls seeking shepherds.<br /><br />Years later, sadder truths unfolded. <br /><br />The former husband, now divorced, was injured in motor vehicle accident in Thailand. Many believe he'd been on a sex tour. He became a paraplegic and ultimately killed himself. <br /><br />The "friend" (aka "Major Payne") therapist went into a coma in the 1990s. An effort was made to have former patients record messages to try to bring him "back to life." Only one person participated. The therapist never recovered. Few seemed to care.<br /><br />The brother of the sister/wife, I heard, went back to using drugs. <br /><br />A gay patient killed himself. <br /><br />One woman had her intestines removed, living ever since with a colostomy bag. <br /><br />A quasi-therapist patient who co-led groups recently drove his car into a pond, apparently trying to commit suicide. His son, once so full of promise, rots in prison. His wife (also a former quasi-therapist) divorced him, becoming an alcoholic. She moved back to her college town to sleep with young male students. The guy who tried to kill himself had re-married, this time to a woman who looked just like his former Boston therapist.<br /><br />Another woman went from having sex with just about everyone to becoming a born-again Christian. <br /><br />Another female, a holistic “wiccan,” now uses medication to control her “depression.” <br /><br />You can’t make this stuff up. To say, as Arthur’s website does, that "This therapy is dangerous in untrained hands," is not an understatement. Trust me.<br /><br />Anyway, in addition to any “scientific” importance that monitoring vital signs might bring, doing so probably provides a level of comfort for patients. Maybe it’s just a placebo, but still: It’s nice to know that if you feel like you’re going crazy a bona fide doctor will be nearby. It might make it easier to let go. If, worse come to worse, you DO end up playing handball with your own stool someone kind and caring will look after you.<br /><br />Why does writing that make me feel so sad?Trevorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14374461848986737683noreply@blogger.com