tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post5310382506919652378..comments2024-02-11T18:16:53.445-08:00Comments on Janov's Reflections on the Human Condition: The Simple Truth is Revolutionary: I Feel Good: A Letter From a PatientArthur Janovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16709863014923629409noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-52320092193205747152013-06-03T21:41:42.041-07:002013-06-03T21:41:42.041-07:00Hey Richard,
I also need to stop concocting usele...Hey Richard,<br /><br />I also need to stop concocting useless theories and make better use of my intellect.<br /><br />As Mt Scrutinizer says - "There's no end of bullshit when you leave feelings behind"-. I just love that line; such a good reminder.<br /><br />Since I stopped 'believing' in concocted bullshit (my own or others)I am just left with 'ruminating negative thoughts'instead. <br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-68969698806553468482013-06-03T16:27:20.540-07:002013-06-03T16:27:20.540-07:00Thanks for the offer apollo but I am not intereste...Thanks for the offer apollo but I am not interested anymore because I can see that there is no tidy explanation. Why does it take a long time to heal from the loss of a loved one? If you try to think of all the possible answers you soon realise that you are disappearing into intellectual land; the place where answers are imagined and inconclusive. There comes a point where we just have to step back and allow the most important information to dominate. OK? Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-73304726540136579882013-06-01T07:44:15.648-07:002013-06-01T07:44:15.648-07:00Richard, you are doing just fine. Just don't s...Richard, you are doing just fine. Just don't stop. Keep on pondering, searching, and seeing what others have to say. In time, if the desire to know and explain is there, you will come to an answer and a better knowledge and continually gets better. You sound more rational in this post than ever before. You are making progress. That is all any of us can do.<br />The subject you bring up has an interesting proposition by MIT author Marvin Minsky, from his book, "the Emotion Machine." In just the 1st 48 pages, he has a very good explanation for why pain and emotion. Ideas can be very fleeting and fickle. So to establish or even overcome an idea, it might help to be slow to do either. Emotions and pain tend to make us slow to throw out what we are given by parents, for our protection, since whether good or bad, it is our parents who are most likely to have out best interests.<br /><br />the challenge, of course, is to eventually, evaluate all we "inherited," and decide what stays and what goes. Marvin can be a little dry but he is worth it. If you can not find the book near you, and don't want to buy it (just yet) I can scan the few pages that are really good. He is a fancy MIT big thinker. He is not a PT guy but he touches on it related stuff more than just about anyone else who is not. Just a suggestion. I'll have to remember to get my camera from the house I am fixing.apollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040184843184207525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-21358630797139597622013-05-31T16:03:39.307-07:002013-05-31T16:03:39.307-07:00During a primal, one is aware of both the present ...During a primal, one is aware of both the present and the past, but the past is the dominant experience. From this it is easy to concoct the following theory:<br />By accessing the past and present simultaneously, the patient can use the present to update his reaction to the past.<br /><br />I have decided to trash that theory because it does not work when we apply it to the following scenario:<br />The patient has lost a loved one -- there will never be a happy ending - there will never be any reason for the pain to go away.<br /><br />But the pain does go away, or at least weakens eventually doesn't it? Why?<br /><br />This brings me to a more simplistic theory:<br />Pain forces it's owner to take a defensive action. <br /><br />Pain has no other purpose. One does not need pain in order to become aware of the damage -- to this end a pleasant signal would suffice.<br /><br />Pain motivates. Pain is very much a part of love. A loving mother hurts when she sees her child dangling from a very high tree branch.<br /><br />The more danger, the greater her pain, and the more motivation to take a defensive (protective) action. From a logical point of view, the mother should feel no pain when her child dies because no defensive action is required. She should feel joy for the wonderful life her child had, and she should simply remember to educate her other children on the hazards of tree-climbing.<br />Or from an equally logical point of view, she should feel huge pain for eternity because there is no defensive action that can resolve the traumatic event.<br /><br />I guess the brain does not adhere to a perfectly logical premise. We are blessed with a grey ball of meat that gives us the motivation to do the right things, but, being a product of random evolution (perhaps not so random when we consider the effects of epigenesis) it is not perfectly suited to our desires. Sometimes we have no choice but to feel pain and allow nature to run it's course. As Paul says, let it play out like a gramophone. <br /><br />I need to stop concocting useless theories and start making better use of my intellect.Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-49555380083602562932013-05-25T10:34:01.829-07:002013-05-25T10:34:01.829-07:00Hi vuko & Richard,
empirical logic and sequen...Hi vuko & Richard,<br /><br />empirical logic and sequential process are bedfellows for deceit if there is no 'scientific observation' carried out by a third party or 'independent witness' (Quality Control).<br /><br />There's a basic counselling exercise variously 'staged' involving two 'co-counselors' and an observing witness; you get to swap around. Several learning opportunities present themselves. The one that strikes me more than anything else is how 'squashy' our memory of time / sequence is; IE: what happened in what order, what was cause and what was effect?<br /><br />I feel imprinted trauma has a 'sequence' and plays (acts) out like a gramophone record when offered approximate situations (in the present) which 'resonate' with the past. But about sequence in particular I notice we all 'suspend' or 'hesitate' in order to await what we are expecting (unconsciously) to play out in a sequence peculiar to our own agenda. So, regardless of the facts in actual time and sequence we can mix up cause and effect and observe personal history playing out in the present when actually it may not really be happening quite that way. It just triggers us off our personal 'expectations' anyway.<br /><br />I think in mainstream psychobabble this is touched on by the subject of "globalization" but Primal theory sharpens the perspective on that somewhat. . . . . Alice Miller had a lot to say about this in her analysis of various tyrannical dictators.<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-61369270392272872032013-05-23T19:01:30.504-07:002013-05-23T19:01:30.504-07:00To Richard,
I think you might do well in PT. I th...To Richard, <br />I think you might do well in PT. I think you would be motivated and would be eager to get rid of pain by feeling. For me, I got things to do and money is not there. I have certain "enemies" (other than myself, of course)in high places that also like to make trouble, which I do sort of ask for. I function well and enjoy what I do. Unless a pile of money drops out of heaven, I am likely out of luck and I won't miss it, anyway. But I will want to hear about your progress if you start! At least one of us will get there.<br /><br />To AnttiJ,<br />Yes, prisons criminalize drugs, which I detest, and that does skew the mix some. but there are still many, even if you reduce it by 80%, who make very bad choices, no doubt due to pain. But to me, it is quite obvious that some have on real reasoning going on in their heads and seem to function completely in 1st and 2nd lines. that is the problem. They will never be attracted to PT. Odd, that it is usually the thinking brain that leads people to PT. apollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040184843184207525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-71722270373801046382013-05-22T09:00:13.794-07:002013-05-22T09:00:13.794-07:00it is a process... before the primal, primal...bio...it is a process... before the primal, primal...biochemical...neurological... metabolical...sensory...blabla...behavioral, cognitive... changes... it is all the healing process. there is no pause and then the payoff... i think. maybe it looks like that from reading the letter. learning processes are not ever linear... but they ARE happening every second. <br />when we sense that we learned something than we say it is the payoff. untill the next primal... the next "payoff"....preparation.... primal...payoff... never stops, and always starts. <br />it should be all in the same direction so we don't get damaged. not too much suffering, not too much repression. efficiency! i think that the primal IS A PART of that process the most energy efficient, no harm-maximum life healing event. it is the real and most important life supporting lesson for a patient. new lesson of love that is at the same time a preparation for the next one. hopefully. and there is more and more trust in the process and less expectations... for payoffs.vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-23735893291371043642013-05-21T19:04:50.361-07:002013-05-21T19:04:50.361-07:00Sadly Vuko, some of these things probably didn'...Sadly Vuko, some of these things probably didn't happen for a lot of us.<br /><br />Len Gibbs.Len Gibbsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-8746883130747947422013-05-21T02:36:51.773-07:002013-05-21T02:36:51.773-07:00Paul
Good luck. All the best. (I wish I could joi...Paul<br /><br />Good luck. All the best. (I wish I could join you but I havent mastered the skyping yet for the interview!)I couldnt afford one yr out there either but I hope you can. I will say what you said to Sieglinde, which is this: Do it! Paul, do it! Take the (friendly) bull by the horns.xx Sandie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-82017858477908819692013-05-20T12:10:43.707-07:002013-05-20T12:10:43.707-07:00Congratulations Paul!
I like your spirit. to learn...Congratulations Paul!<br />I like your spirit. to learn about ourselves and to learn carpentry<br />with somebody competent like you sounds like a well spent time.<br />i wish you good company, joy in work... and feelings!<br /><br />vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-2907282930923796562013-05-19T17:53:20.660-07:002013-05-19T17:53:20.660-07:00Hi Paul,
i am not sure i understand what you are s...Hi Paul,<br />i am not sure i understand what you are saying... <br />are you asking advice about parenting?<br /><br />parents can help the balance... the key is probably in<br />mutual trust. between the parents and the child.<br />the child wants to feel good. to make the best<br />he/she can.<br />parents can ...<br />i don't know Paul. a saying from parents comes to my mind:<br />"God is taking care of children"<br /><br />could it be that trying to answer you i am stopped by a wall of repression? sorry Paul. it is too much for me right now.<br />i can't intelectualise and can't feel. not tonight. <br /><br />first balance the first line. the rest is easier. calm and not too threatening environment i guess. to keep rage/desperation under control. the child will help.. vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-74866598028306048992013-05-19T03:00:16.544-07:002013-05-19T03:00:16.544-07:00Hi All,
I feel it's worth mentioning that the...Hi All,<br /><br />I feel it's worth mentioning that the Primal Centre has finally (after much deliberation) accepted my second application for therapy but there are very strict conditions which I have to meet.<br /><br />I have to move to LA for a minimum of 12 months; 18 months maybe. <br /><br />Ever the brave 'can do' carpenter I responded with aplomb. But kissing goodbye to family and work here will be traumatic to say the least. At my age and with my traumas I have little choice; I have to go.<br /><br />I'm thinking of shipping out my entire toolkit and setting up shop on the West Coast somewhere. . . . How about a shared, not for profit safe house for crazy patients?<br /><br />Any one interested?<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-11877069059401049492013-05-18T06:47:54.290-07:002013-05-18T06:47:54.290-07:00Apollo: "The many dangers of bad decisions an...Apollo: "The many dangers of bad decisions and choices. Prisons are loaded with those types." Ahem. "Those types" are mostly people of color who chose to use a substance that is deemed illegal. The war on drugs, the systemic racism that is an integral part of it, and the Big Business that is the prison-industrial complex is what keeps American prisons full. Just saying...AnttiJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12010248788384946781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-77728028801964318032013-05-17T11:29:46.770-07:002013-05-17T11:29:46.770-07:00Richard: good idea to stay longer. This therapy w...Richard: good idea to stay longer. This therapy was designed for at least a one year stay and most early patients did stay a year. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-31860516477270123372013-05-17T00:35:27.606-07:002013-05-17T00:35:27.606-07:00Hi,
it seems then that the motive to do Primal ma...Hi,<br /><br />it seems then that the motive to do Primal may be more than the immediate pressure of a breakdown, serious illness or long standing chronic and debilitating neurosis / depression / anxiety / drug dependency.<br /><br />The motive may be a growing awareness of the unconscious and a growing awareness of the consequences of trauma any one might 'know' happened to them but realises they don't feel.<br /><br />Not feeling is a worry. Or should be. . . I mean, we are mostly all harping on about how we notice a durth of feeling in our societies. An absence of something is hard to notice at first.<br /><br />Not 'having' feelings is also very 'convenient'; at first. Then, being overwhelmed by them is extremely 'inconvenient'.<br /><br />Somehow our 'modern' societies need to acknowledge the idea that something is not right. . . absence of feelings. . . That's not right. What IS wrong? Getting people to ask that question and perceive the need to feel is a big step.<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-66927554076121421552013-05-16T17:29:51.313-07:002013-05-16T17:29:51.313-07:00i know how big my pain is....it's more than my...i know how big my pain is....it's more than my heart can withstand. i have come close to it many times. every day, when i have done basically nothing wrong, i still obsess about whether i have damaged my brain or i just feel like something is terribly wrong....or my body movements feel wrong...dangerous. why? i know why...it's because my shitty life is ruled by my first line. i never feel awake. and to make it worse, i'm surrounded by people who are not interested in reality. and they all think that i am a normal, well-functioning person. and i thought i was normal until my brother showed me primal theory.<br /><br />if the primal center can help me to feel love (nothing is more important than that) and help me to feel my surroundings like i did when i was a kid, it will be the greatest gift i can ever receive. i don't need a guarantee or sugar-coated stories from every primal patient. there is no other place that is offering a real opportunity for a good life. apollo, don't you think it is worth trying? i'm nearly ready to get therapy. i've got money....just talking to friends in america....i want to stay longer than three months at a time. it would be cool to see you and the other readers at the primal center.Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-84842039426453087932013-05-16T13:48:27.762-07:002013-05-16T13:48:27.762-07:00Vuko: Very good work. artVuko: Very good work. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-1388571686506907482013-05-16T13:39:24.915-07:002013-05-16T13:39:24.915-07:00apollo: I used to think it was an amazing discover...apollo: I used to think it was an amazing discovery to cure people. But there is something that is hard to explain: the amount of unconscious pain we all carry within ourselves. The pain we consciously feel may not feel like it requires 40 years of therapy, but that is because we don't feel the unconscious part that is much greater. And the more you feel in therapy, the deeper you go, the more you uncover the unconscious pain, the more you realize the intensity and amount of what you were carrying.<br />Therapy can only follow each individual natural rhythm and what their body can take out, one piece at a time. So in fact, I don't want to sound pessimistic, but people with massive early trauma may not have enough of a life time to resolve it entirely, even with Primal Therapy. However it is still better to take it out, one piece at a time, and live a better life day after day. And I agree with you, healthy diet, exercise, all these other tools we can find can definitely help greatly too. <br />As Primal therapists, we are charged with taking pain out. We never put it in, someone else did. Arthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-59550195017584224442013-05-16T12:30:25.835-07:002013-05-16T12:30:25.835-07:00Hi vuko, well asked,
There's two things, the ...Hi vuko, well asked,<br /><br />There's two things, the trauma, at the time it happened, in the history of the individual: "imprinted". Then there are the consequences (history unfolding). Each require two distinctly different balancing forces as they spread out into society from that nuclear, procreational family.<br /><br />Could it be that two parents of each gender can evolve to help the newborn recover from the shocks? A balancing relationship? An act of evolution, a pair of contributors to the recovery of an individual or the growth of a group? a Group bigger than the nuclear family it evolved from. . .<br /><br />A pair of loving parents.<br /><br />Paul G.<br /><br />Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-38210397250065810302013-05-16T10:32:02.813-07:002013-05-16T10:32:02.813-07:00Keeping this goal in mind I decided to write
THE B...Keeping this goal in mind I decided to write<br />THE BIRTH PROTOCOL – for a more human way of getting to this dry, often cold and unfamiliar world.<br /><br />1.ENVIRONMENT<br />make conditions in hospital appropriate to having a welcome to someone who is trying to leave the worm, calm and cosy environment that was the only he-she new for the last nine months. That includes the pleasant temperature, air quality, lights,no noise…. and alow the presence of of husband or anybody the mother feels necessary for her.<br />2. MOTHER POSITION<br />make conditions for alternative position for mother that are giving birth i.e. sitting, on elbows, standing, crouching…<br /> 3. SPEED OF LABOUR<br /> the labour shouldn’t be routinely by any chemical or other way slowed down or speed up and don’t let the mother wait for medical assistance so she must herself interfeer with the labour process by slowing it down. <br />4. PHYSICAL MANIPULATION<br />during the labour do not use exessive physical force on babys' body, espetially head and spine.<br />5. SKIN TO SKIN CONTACT<br />after the birth put the baby onto worm mothers chest and in her arms so the baby doesn't feel alienated but protected and to enable the emotional bondage between mother and her child to happen.<br />6. THE UMBILICAL CORD<br />do not rush with cutting the umbilical cord untill it stops pulsating because the baby won’t wish to go anywhere (and can’t do it) and the lenght of the cord is hopefully sufiscient to reach the mothers chest. bath and measuring can wait for an hour?<br />8. BRESTFEEDING<br />encourage in every known way the production of milk and the plans for the mother to brestfeed her child. boost her confidence in her insincts both during pregnancy and just after the labour.<br />9. NO SEPARATION <br />do not ever phisycally separate the baby and the mother if not totally necessary and even then try to provide the conditions so the baby is not totally without the so comforting gentle physical contact.<br />10. LABOUR AT HOME<br />if the mother feels more confident giving labor at her home the hospital should provide the necessary staff to help her do it home. <br /><br />What is in there for the mother and for the hospitals?<br />For the mother this could be beautiful experience that they will like to recommend to their friends and for private hospitals this could mean more prestige and number of labours-more money. If it is good for the baby it is by definition good for everybody. Every hospital is of course free to accept this protocol integraly or just a part of it. Anyway, every part of it I believe has the potential to support life.<br />This is not the final version but I think it shouldn’t be much more complicated than this. It is the simplicity that motivated me to write it and the simplicity could make somebody get interested… I hope.<br />We all survived our birth but there are the ones who remember it. Their contribution could be of the most value. And I think it shouldn’t cost too much to apply the most of it. It could reduce some expencies actually. vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-50416798672707066272013-05-16T10:17:35.596-07:002013-05-16T10:17:35.596-07:00Art, i didn't send it before... only wrote it ...Art, i didn't send it before... only wrote it to work on it some more time.<br />but since i can't possibly write the final version i am sending this one:<br /><br /><br />there is always a big interest in peace agreement. two side decide to stop the war and they sit at the table to sign some kind of contract, the cease-fire agreement for example. it contains conditions, that makes both parts relatively satisfied. Like the beginning of every conflict so the end of it is not easily explainable but it certainly enables basic conditions for life to develop.<br />I believe that these conflicts are not a natural but a consequence of the lack of consciousness that makes us forget what is really important in life, so we start killing each other. That process has it’s roots from our conception, from our life in the womb and can get most dramatic during the labor. It is the critical time that lasts only few hours but often represents the model of conflict from the example above. We have the enormous power to interfere the natural birth process that may not be always for life preservation but can be life endangering. There are scientific proofs that can support this claim but I hope the scientists, doctors, midwifes and not the least important mothers and fathers… apart from measured and available and not yet aveilable data will use common sense, and feelings to decide what is the best way for our future generation to make a transition from intrauterine to out of uterine life and to recognize what is standing as interference in this natural process. <br />The question is: How can we all contribute so this act gets closer to an act of love.<br />vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-26550827630931846012013-05-16T03:10:47.669-07:002013-05-16T03:10:47.669-07:00Anonymous,
I think... if primal therapy was condu...Anonymous,<br /><br />I think... if primal therapy was conducted in a social perspective then there would be opportunities beyond what today can be offered... a very different meaning. <br /><br />The responsibility primal therapy assumes... does not meet the needs for alot. To do that... it required resources. Primal Therapy responsibility can not be compromised on the quality... and for what is necessary in the matter of resources... that would be of devastating consequences if not so. In some cases a slow process is necessary... that is a cost some has to take as a result of resources in some cases... I am one!<br /><br />To perceive all "sentences" of suffering as patients conveys is probably Janovs big challenge. It would make a difference if it were carried out in society r... which is a problem for all of us!<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-71572094334594883062013-05-15T04:40:55.327-07:002013-05-15T04:40:55.327-07:00This is a lovely story from a patient yet I wonder...This is a lovely story from a patient yet I wonder, as he has been doing the therapy since 1974,(which is almost 40 years) just why it takes so long and also so many returns to the primal centre before the wonderful healing might take place? This is only an option for those with a continual income (a good one) and for people who live in the United States. For the rest of us the time is greatly limited to the extension of the visa. Three weeks or three months in therapy plus Skype would be just a tiny bite of the apple but this would probably be the only option we have!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-7930165919364795832013-05-15T02:00:14.021-07:002013-05-15T02:00:14.021-07:00I am happy for the patient that payoffs are finall...I am happy for the patient that payoffs are finally arriving, after only 39 years of on an off therapy. How encouraging, if you can sense my sarcasm. Nothing better illustrates how useless PT can be, when the scope of time encompasses an entire lifetime.<br /><br />As Emma put it, “I'm discouraged by how I can go through the feelings and function at the same time. I got to a point where I was sleeping 2 hours a night and not able to work. Without work I cannot live. It's not so simple. There are many things that enable people to succeed in primal and I think these need to be addressed more to really help the patient.”<br /><br />Its not really working, at least not enough to leave people able to function. But yet, discerning healthy rules and strategies for living, acting, etc.; these can make great differences and do so almost immediately. The POWER of good decisions and choices! Its amazing! The many dangers of bad decisions and choices. Prisons are loaded with those types. <br /><br />To be in such denial of all this, makes me seriously wonder about people and their motives and abilities.<br />apollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040184843184207525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-10654061825275279202013-05-14T06:11:29.414-07:002013-05-14T06:11:29.414-07:00Another email comment:
"Good. Thank you. Ar...Another email comment:<br /><em>"Good. Thank you. Are you also a creative writer? Your prose is beautiful!"</em>Arthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.com