tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post3733056913622551865..comments2024-02-11T18:16:53.445-08:00Comments on Janov's Reflections on the Human Condition: The Simple Truth is Revolutionary: Oxytocin (Part 5/5)Arthur Janovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16709863014923629409noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-81215286295450348972009-04-29T01:15:00.000-07:002009-04-29T01:15:00.000-07:00Well good luck, Andy. Obviously, you are perspi...Well good luck, Andy. Obviously, you are perspicacious. dr. janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-76049604223884813332009-04-29T01:11:00.000-07:002009-04-29T01:11:00.000-07:00Andy: Amen. dr. janovAndy: Amen. dr. janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-2302072329391407322009-04-27T18:52:00.000-07:002009-04-27T18:52:00.000-07:00Andy, your observation “Some psychologists, from w...Andy, your observation “Some psychologists, from what I understand, don't believe in the reality of repressed memories, or at least their neurosis-inducing impact” correspond with personal experience. <br />One psychologist told me: there is no need to regress in to the trauma in order to “feel better”. <br /><br />Another therapist was des-nerved after she tried several differed theories, encouraging me to release anger (Gestalt). After I told her I have no anger, I feel fear and would like to find the source, she clapped her hands over her head to gather, asking me!!!!!: “what theory fits you”. My answer was, I don’t need theories, I need healing. <br /><br />Because she ‘couldn’t deal with me (her words) I was pushed of to the psychiatrist who saw only one solution “350 mg Wellbutrin”. <br /><br />Just reasoned, I had an MRI (with contrast). I asked the neuro-surgeon if he detected any abnormality at the corpus callosum, (in addition to another finding). After he corrected my accent, his arrogance phrased the question:” why would you have a need to know about it”. <br /> <br />Listening in to the complaints of other childhood victims, how they are treated, I’m convinced, there is a significant lack of knowledge, too much theory, very little feeling and most of all, very little respect for the individual is present among the ones who suppose to help healing the emotional pain. <br />In an open letter I wrote in 2000 to psychologists, psychiatrists and therapists I said: “heal your self first”. Now, 9 years later, I’m still convinced there is a great need for healing among some experts”.S. W. Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12087227301358286386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-40646076370711452392009-04-22T01:47:00.000-07:002009-04-22T01:47:00.000-07:00Hi Dr Janov,
I am not a professional psychologist...Hi Dr Janov,<br /><br />I am not a professional psychologist. My interest here has been a private exploration, over about 10 years or so. I am currently working as an aircraft loader, which is a "means to an ends" job for me right now. I have long term ambitions associated with entertainment production (long story) and maybe politics and 'other', which I am working towards.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-20801928359827337502009-04-22T00:37:00.000-07:002009-04-22T00:37:00.000-07:00What is it you do, andy? dr. janovWhat is it you do, andy? dr. janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-53640356831551666542009-04-20T21:35:00.000-07:002009-04-20T21:35:00.000-07:00Traudl: Thanks for that post. I would like to add ...Traudl: Thanks for that post. I would like to add a thought relating to observations with PTSD.<br /><br />I recently read a small article in a science magazine(can't remember which sorry) about studies done on people who suffered from some degree of PTSD after watching -first hand- the twin towers collapse in New York. They found that people standing closer to the falling towers were more traumatised by what they saw than people who were further away. They made this observation primarily by a observing a brain region(the amygdala I think?) which was more heavily swollen in the selected subjects who were closer to the towers when they collapsed.<br /><br />This is just an example of how trauma irrefutably affects the brain, but I want to use this example to show the different outlooks that I believe different psychologists have. Some psychologists, from what I understand, don't believe in the reality of repressed memories, or at least their neurosis-inducing impact. So how would they answer to the simple example that I gave in the first paragraph? It's a guess, but I would say that they must see recorded brain changes like this as being representative of the *result* of an emotional storm that has run through the brain *but* finally leaving [so in turn leaving a neurobiological mess in its wake], as opposed to a clinically traumatic physiological and/or emotional perception that *beds itself into the brain*, establishing and induring affect. <br /><br />Likewise, this would explain the strictly "lets see what we can do with drugs and/or behavioural/cognitive therapy" approach that psychologists seem to be dedicated to. In essence, I think they confuse neurological damage with neurological defense - an easy mistake to make because trauma, at the end of the day, is invisable to *direct* external observation. When they see those chemicals in the brain not working properly as a consequence of a trauma they think they're looking at the core of problem, because they think that the tornado has gone, so to speak. I believe this might be their greatest assumption and greatest mistake. Because, as I believe, if they can understand that neurosis (with its observed biological correlations) is a defensive response to an imprinted infliction, then, in time, they will inevitably be led to the truth of what must ultimately be done about the problem.<br /><br />Why don't they dare consider that neurosis at least *could* be primarily a natural system, rather than an expression of raw neurobiological damage?Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-44347790803330481432009-04-20T01:48:00.000-07:002009-04-20T01:48:00.000-07:00Traudl: Thank you a lot. Dr. JanovTraudl: Thank you a lot. Dr. JanovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-9213456462103183522009-04-20T01:45:00.000-07:002009-04-20T01:45:00.000-07:00If you don't know what your are doing there is bou...If you don't know what your are doing there is bound to be bad results. I have never seen it otherwise. I would hope that others have found a good way but it is not the case. dr. janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-3004430263241991682009-04-19T12:09:00.000-07:002009-04-19T12:09:00.000-07:00Dear Dr. Janov,
I wish I could bring Dr. France Ja...Dear Dr. Janov,<br />I wish I could bring Dr. France Janov to the Round Table. <br />The language barrier could be one issue. It is indeed a problem for Germans to accept knowledge from outside their comfort zone. Please understand that Germans trust nobody and need to invent, the wheel over and over again. (smile) <br /><br />Nevertheless, my webalizer (a statistic tool) tells me that the link to Oxitocin, I placed on my english. website, receives frequent clicks from Germany. Some interest from over see in your writing is now obvious. <br />I will continue distributing all material I’m convinced of , and encourage European “experts” to open their minds. <br />Sieglinde Alexander admin@aaacworld.orgS. W. Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12087227301358286386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-75842546371817757852009-04-19T05:49:00.000-07:002009-04-19T05:49:00.000-07:00To Patrem,
I cannot believe my eyes,I thought you ...To Patrem,<br />I cannot believe my eyes,I thought you were Pat Torngren.She would write exactly the same as you did,but your name is Patrick.........That you didnot already find her..? Or am I uncovering identities...<br /><br />About Germany.In 1985,when I was in therapy for about half a year I coincidentely looked at a newspaper from Germany,at the back of it a complete page filled with advertisements about people offering primaltherapy.Really big advertisements.Is this all gone as suggested here because of disappointing results?Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18006951008750288590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-17243858401847484392009-04-18T22:39:00.000-07:002009-04-18T22:39:00.000-07:00Dr. Janov's Primal Therapy is not yet acceptable s...Dr. Janov's Primal Therapy is not yet acceptable science. If permanent changes in hormones/vital signs is not acceptable as scientific evidence, then we should all look to the heavens, because nobody else is offering a cure.<br /><br />Everybody keeps asking for hard science. How much science do you want?? If a person is feeling good, he/she will never be able to prove it. There comes a point when we must decide if we want to try Janov's therapy (I will within two years). That decision cannot be based purely on science.<br /> <br />By the way, I invite Walden and Will and Traudl (and anyone else) to take a look at my ideas I posted in A New Paradigm for Psychology (look at left menue). I'm cooking hotdogs over there.Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-61062801276682915232009-04-18T06:08:00.000-07:002009-04-18T06:08:00.000-07:00Dr. Janov,
It is disheartening to hear about prof...Dr. Janov,<br /><br />It is disheartening to hear about professionals hanging out a shingle, as you say, without the proper training and preparations. This goes back to the "tolerating nonsense" argument, doesn't it. And the response is to pull back and disown them. And I suppose they resent that and keep on in defiance, but eventually drop the idea because of poor results. It's a shame this polarization has to occur. I can't help but think that by setting the proper expectations of what can and cannot be accomplished by untrained "professionals", along with providing some on-site guidance for them, a better albeit more meager set of results could be achieved, and then built upon over time. There must be a continuum from no therapy to proper therapy with safe stations along the way. The Primal Center must take the lead in innovating that. I volunteer to help.<br /><br />Waldenwaldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01413884614943198095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-17047256589139907042009-04-18T00:56:00.000-07:002009-04-18T00:56:00.000-07:00I think my wife, Dr. France Janov, who is clinical...I think my wife, Dr. France Janov, who is clinical director the Primal Center would be the one you want. Glad you are trying. I never had much luck. We gave a few week course to Germany professionals who promptly hung out a shingle stating that they do primal therapy. That is dangerous, and they are ruining lives. dr. janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-61919133936090773172009-04-17T10:49:00.000-07:002009-04-17T10:49:00.000-07:00Arthur Janov,
I don't question whether these anim...Arthur Janov,<br /><br />I don't question whether these animals can cry and whimper and even have memory of trauma. What is the significance of your armpit in the story? What can you say about the connectedness of the experience of your whimpering dog? Did the dog cease to be frightened all of the time after one of these whimperings? After many? If so, how does that differ in results from others who rescue dogs and just treat them well? You're really not making much of a case that your dog primalled. And even if you made a strong case that your dog had a vivid reliving experience, I would still question whether it was a useful primal. This is very important (and in fact the real reason I opened this question), because it seems that with psychotics and certain others who lack stable intellect, gaining better access to primal feelings can be disintegrative more than integrative. So my real question is not whether animals lacking the human extent of frontal brain matter can regress, it's whether they can make permanent learning out of such an experience. Would it be healing? I am skeptical. Especially since in these animals, where there is a paucity of frontal "control", it would seem that primals should be spontaneous and we should never see lasting neurosis in them. But we do.<br /><br />Waldenwaldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01413884614943198095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-15419898945971904612009-04-17T08:40:00.000-07:002009-04-17T08:40:00.000-07:00Dear Dr. Janov,
The need for PT has reached a new ...Dear Dr. Janov,<br />The need for PT has reached a new urgency. Can you name any PT-Therapists in Germany?<br /><br />My statement relates to the reality, that the German government has finally acknowledged that in the years between 1949 – 1975 over 800 000 children were in religious institutions and over half of them were severely abused. <br />Now the government has ordered a Round Table to function as “truth commission”. <br />One of their (limited) aims is to provide therapy for the abused. However these politicians know only about the conventional “talk therapy”, which they will now authorize. <br /><br />My input is to bring the awareness that these childhood abused adults, who lived with early inflicted trauma for over 50 years, need more than cognitive therapy, - they need healing. <br /><br />For now I have only two German scientists who will speak on the subject – the effect of abuse. <br />Prof. Elbert “neuro science Structural and functional neuroplasticity in relation to traumatic stress http://www.aaacworld.org/info/Ms_CD_KolassaElbert.htm<br />and eventual Prof. Wiedemann with: Cortisol and Imaginal Exposure in Posttraumatic Stress http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp-article-otte.pdf<br /> <br />I would also like to introduce to the Round Table “truth commission” a therapist who earned credentials at your institute. <br />Sieglinde admin@aaacworld.orgS. W. Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12087227301358286386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-642358316730765322009-04-17T08:24:00.000-07:002009-04-17T08:24:00.000-07:00What fascinates me about PT is how the changes it ...What fascinates me about PT is how the changes it produces affect the patient afterwards. I I have never had any form of therapy though i visited a counsellor a few times and talked about stuff which doesn't really count as there was no intervention as such. But to go from a repression induced numbness to life to an opening up to the new feeling of previously blocked sensory input is a huge shift. It also may require the resetting or a new co-ordination of ones senses to integrate them towards one another or alter behaviour. (I can't recall in which of Dr Janov's books but he said that many patients take to listening to music more after PT as simple sensory activities become the cause of much greater fascination and enjoyment) Such a change or jolt from a sudden engagement with previously unfelt sensory data could be initially quite scary and constitutes a fear which requires the support of a knowing therapist to guide you into the new feeling. In this sense the therapist is on hand to offer protection and reassurance without which the patient could not settle into a new mode of being. This is most likely why animals are less able to alter their states because they're position in the food chain offers no sanctuary from fear - unless, like Dr Janov's dog, they get adopted into a safe environment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-45196385220485390342009-04-17T02:07:00.000-07:002009-04-17T02:07:00.000-07:00Walden,
I had a primal about 15 years ago and it ...Walden,<br /><br />I had a primal about 15 years ago and it was totally involuntary (as in TOTALLY). It was almost like a part of me said: "Right - you're gonna feel this whether you like it or not!". <br />I experienced the primal sequence exactly how Janov describes it. From my experience, there is nothing abstract about it. You are simply experiencing the truth of what happened and what those truths really meant to you (on a feeling level), and in turn allowing yourself to simply feel what you feel of it. It's just like a child that has been hurt in the here-and-now - they don't conceptualise how or why they have been attacked by their mother (as an example), they just feel hurt, and feel through the hurt (unless it's too much and repressed, of course). If you get Janov's Primal Therapy, and I hope you do, you will see. <br /><br />Dr Janov: <br /><br />That post about the dog was interesting. I know that my cat is sensitive to how I feel in relation to her. If I genuinely don't mind her sitting on me and I'm happy with her company (usually she is a pain), she seems to know it and relaxes more. There are probably a lot of core communicable similarities between the mammals. We do, apparently, have pretty much the same midbrain, I understand.<br /><br />Humans feel more when they're feeling secure and unassaulted - I feel with a lot more depth when I wake up at 2am in the morning, when my defense system is more "slackened off" (I believe). Maybe animals spontaneously primal in their own way, like you suggest, when they feel secure enough too. I see no fundamental reason why not.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-12839861422406750532009-04-17T01:18:00.000-07:002009-04-17T01:18:00.000-07:00Sorry to disagree. We had a dog who was rescued a...Sorry to disagree. We had a dog who was rescued and it was very frightened all of the time. I put his head under my armpit and caressed him. He began to cry and whimper like a baby. dr. janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-74135135404838607292009-04-16T06:39:00.000-07:002009-04-16T06:39:00.000-07:00Andy,
It's probably fair to say that a continuum ...Andy,<br /><br />It's probably fair to say that a continuum exists among animal intelligences, and that along that continuum we choose to posit qualitative differences. I understand "qualitative" to be a feature of how we view phenomena, not necessarily something intrinsic to those phenomena.<br /><br />To ground the discussion, I'll ask a question. Can a cat primal? I'll say no, and I think it has to do less with the loss of control and more with intentional self-guidance and higher cognitive function. When I was a kid, by the way, we had a neurotic cat "Smitty" as a pet. He was rescued alone as a very small kitten from under a car in a parking lot where my mother worked. All his life he compulsively sucked on the end of his tail and had a "borderline" personality wherein the initial enjoyment of affectionate petting would always turn into an aggressive attack on the person petting him. Is there a "primal therapy" that can work on such a creature? Why or why not?waldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01413884614943198095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-48559928800187736002009-04-15T01:54:00.000-07:002009-04-15T01:54:00.000-07:00Hi Walden,
Thanks for your post. Yeah, for sure ...Hi Walden,<br /><br /><br />Thanks for your post. Yeah, for sure our intelligence allows us to do things qualitively in advance of other animals, but I don't think that our intelligence, in itself, is necessarily qualitively advanced. For example, the very first electronic computers could solve basic maths problems ok, but operating multi-media programmes took a lot more power and time, even though the raw architecture of those early computers was/is the same as modern computers. That's where I was coming from with respect to the difference between human and other animal intelligence.<br /><br /><br />I also think that feeling a feeling, in a primal, is critically different to choosing to feel a consciously idealised feeling. In a primal you simply choose to feel "whatever is there". That is, you "give in" to the repressed feeling, be what it may. So yes, higher-level control ultimately allows us the decision to give in to a feeling or not, but once we have given in to the feeling the historic truth of what lies within us dictates whatever we shall specifically feel (at the time). In essence, the process of having a primal is more about allowing yourself to lose control, than specifically choosing to feel a given way.<br /><br /><br />You also mentioned about hormones. I think that can be tricky. Clearly hormones correlate to feelings and play a critical role in them, but whether or not that correlation is absolute is not conclusive(?). I don't know if different feelings of different types always correlate to hormonal changes?Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-52721424988932617092009-04-13T19:45:00.000-07:002009-04-13T19:45:00.000-07:00Andy,
From above:
"Implicit in this is an unders...Andy,<br /><br />From above:<br /><br />"Implicit in this is an understanding that hormone fluctuations alter behavior. The reverse, however, is not necessarily true – psychotherapy does not affect the system by changing behavior."<br /><br />The reverse may not be _necessarily_ true, but it can be true, whether the result of psychotherapy or something else. An observation can lead to a decision to change a behavior can lead to an alteration in the hormone system, which can be subjectively felt and experienced. I'm not citing a study here; this is my own experience as a second grader. I was frustrated and in a flash, decided to copy the attitude of a calm female classmate. The change was transient but not temporary. It showed itself through the shape and weight of my handwriting. It felt different in a bodily way, so I know it was mediated by the hormone system at least.<br /><br />Such observations and decisions to change behavior are key to enabling a therapy that allows one to change the way one responds to beckoning feelings. Without this level of behavioral control, Primal Therapy would not be possible. Think about that. You use your mind to allow you to have an alternate experience.<br /><br />So Andy, there you have it. That's the qualitative difference between human intelligence and other mammal intelligence. Our ancient ancestors are more of a one way street when it comes to intelligence; we're two way. Viva la difference!waldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01413884614943198095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-57959563578564784502009-04-13T03:20:00.000-07:002009-04-13T03:20:00.000-07:00Dear Dr. Art Janov,I read “The Primal Scream” in ...Dear Dr. Art Janov,<BR/>I read “The Primal Scream” in 1975 here in South Africa where I live. In 1980 I started PT at your Institute<BR/>in Colby Road in L.A., doing my intensive with Nick Barton, I was there for about 2 years after which I continued with Brenda Craven, who was absolutely wonderful. I came back home at the end of 1992. Needless to say, Primal therapy has changed my life forever. I have been self-primalling since and I feel that my therapy is right on track. <BR/><BR/>However, I doubt whether even ten other South Africans had done PT. I have not been able to contact any<BR/>except for one lady who lives app.1500 kilometres away from where I am, which is Gauteng Province. It means that I have no personal contact with other primallers and thus have no-one to buddy with. I would really<BR/>love to be able to buddy with someone in person again.<BR/><BR/>I am now wondering if there are any other South Africans who read your blog. It would be a real thrill to <BR/>meet them. May I please leave my details?<BR/><BR/>Once again, a heartfelt thanks for what your therapy has meant to me.. <BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/><BR/><BR/>PATRICK VAN NIEKERK e-mail address: patrem@iburst.co.za Tel 27 01 482 - 6000Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-28055338581684430082009-04-12T16:37:00.000-07:002009-04-12T16:37:00.000-07:00I enjoyed this post Dr Janov.For the sake of sayin...I enjoyed this post Dr Janov.<BR/><BR/>For the sake of saying, I think there is a way to tell the difference between love and need. I think need is easily promiscuous because need can chop-and-change its "objects of fullfulment" with relative ease when there is no or little true interpersonal attachment, as the individual is primarily attached only to their own needs. I'm not saying that to be judgmental on others; indeed, I think I am largely speaking of myself as well.<BR/><BR/>I'm also not suprised that rats are genetically very similar to humans. The true difference between humans and other animals (especially higher animals) is extremely superficial - structurally, we are almost identical. Just a 'bloated' outer cortex and that's pretty much it. <BR/><BR/>-And intelligence, at the end of the day, is just a mass of associated memories. I doubt very much that there is a true qualitive difference between human intelligence and other animal intelligence. I think human intelligence is just an extention of the same theme.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.com