tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post1568109169804633036..comments2024-02-11T18:16:53.445-08:00Comments on Janov's Reflections on the Human Condition: The Simple Truth is Revolutionary: REPOST: Philip Seymour Hoffman died 3 years agoArthur Janovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16709863014923629409noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-14212455401435639572014-03-02T08:13:33.358-08:002014-03-02T08:13:33.358-08:00ZW, i wish i understand better what you are saying...ZW, i wish i understand better what you are saying. it is not an easy subject... prone to speculations. but provocative.vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-63203229829632197522014-02-28T19:41:44.717-08:002014-02-28T19:41:44.717-08:00Vuko – Yes, there is Primal for animals! Well, for...Vuko – Yes, there is Primal for animals! Well, for dogs anyway. The Dog Whisper (Cesar Millan) of TV fame rehabilitates psychologically imbalanced dogs using methods that other Dog Trainers view as unorthodox and possibly more damaging. Sound familiar? Anyway, he gets dogs to face their fears, which evokes powerful emotions until their imprint lessons and they become calm and submissive.<br /><br />On an individual level I would guess that some animals fare worse due to bad luck when it comes to the imprint. On the whole though, I suspect that the imprint has helped in the evolution of species.<br /><br />It just doesn’t do humans any good since realistically we shouldn’t have anything to fear.<br />ZWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00656703166266453926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-25989583228808092372014-02-24T16:23:37.306-08:002014-02-24T16:23:37.306-08:00Hi planespotter & Richard,
Yes, and I was bei...Hi planespotter & Richard,<br /><br />Yes, and I was being a tad sarcastic and self deprecating about my own compulsive perfectionism. But I think this issue about the imprint is important and it's so easy to imagine that good parenting is about 'doing' something to the child. Essentially I am really in agreement with Richards point and just intrigued about how with words I can so easily deceive myself. How the meanings of things can so easily be twisted to their opposites by the subtle or not so subtle change of words.<br />This is also a disease of thinking, that I can make something or someone into something they are not.<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-8013572804306433002014-02-24T04:46:42.094-08:002014-02-24T04:46:42.094-08:00reply to myself:
but what about the animals that d...reply to myself:<br />but what about the animals that do not primal?<br />what about all species that are subjected to imprint but can't resolve it?<br />imprint is i guess only bad for them. <br />or it is called evolution of the species?<br />but ... <br />i don't know.<br />aren't the newest part of our brain the ones that enable primal?<br />what is the theoretically earliest age for child to primal?<br />do we primal for animals'... health too? <br />it is all just one organism.<br />.......<br />......vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-14628240198916968342014-02-23T15:17:36.442-08:002014-02-23T15:17:36.442-08:00i think that the imprint is (only) self explanator...i think that the imprint is (only) self explanatory.<br />both good and bad... or neither.<br />perfect.<br />patient ly waits for a chance to prove it.<br /> <br /> vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-39620153646878259732014-02-23T09:40:19.855-08:002014-02-23T09:40:19.855-08:00Richard – Interesting. Maybe there’s always at lea...Richard – Interesting. Maybe there’s always at least some low level stress, but the more we’re triggered the more our stress level rises.<br /><br />Sheri – You won’t get any argument from me on the symptoms associated with the imprint/neurosis. I’ve struggled with most of the symptoms you’ve outlined. I was just curious if there were ways to minimize the stress, and avoid any possible physical problems down the road such as cardio vascular disease etc. Since I haven’t found a good option yet to undergo Primal Therapy, I hope to at least to minimize the stress by use of conventional methods.<br /><br />Frank - I can see the wisdom in your words. I like what you say.ZWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00656703166266453926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-52485216124427387282014-02-23T09:34:31.453-08:002014-02-23T09:34:31.453-08:00Paul – “Spiritual MateriaIism”. I agree.
Paul -...Paul – “Spiritual MateriaIism”. I agree.<br /><br />Paul - Yes, and the problem gets worse when you consider the depletion of natural resources that has gone on. The sooner the world transitions to a more sustainable model the better in my opinion.ZWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00656703166266453926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-19829322475158894212014-02-21T03:10:18.209-08:002014-02-21T03:10:18.209-08:00Paul and Richard
Interested in seeing the debate ...Paul and Richard<br /><br />Interested in seeing the debate about putting someone right or not as the case may be. Is'nt it about having a strong opinion. After all Art has a strong opinion about his therapy and so has often found himself on the edge of debate. What is wrong with having a strong opinion? If one is still open to listening and respecting other people's views and opinion's that's just confidence. I have had some strong opinions on many matters on this blog and sometimes found myself attacked for these. Those who are still defensive due to past pain may find strong opinions that differ from their own difficult to take on board because these opposing views attack the persons sense of self. If one's sense of self is based upon a particular philosophy or spirituality rather than an innate sense of self worth based upon confidence in one's own feelings then one's sense of self is going to be more easily undermined I would have thought.planespotterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05315637682741508786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-6380008566950832602014-02-20T02:25:29.974-08:002014-02-20T02:25:29.974-08:00Why neocortex a question for humanity?
Experience...Why neocortex a question for humanity?<br /><br />Experience has space in the limbic system alone through loving upbringing and becomes imprinted when we repress... if not loved. It also applies to the physiological process while pregnant... a mother must be in good health for her fetus to get the right opportunities... otherwise it becomes inprinted! <br /><br />There is a big difference between what is inculcated and what is the experience... experience is floating in a flourishing processess... from the limbic system to neocortex... while what is inculcated does not... but are wished for in the primal therapeutic process! <br /><br />What is inculcated becomes during a primal therapeutic process experience and will fill the purpose of conscious awareness!<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-27683929972622148612014-02-20T01:39:18.316-08:002014-02-20T01:39:18.316-08:00Paul, It is like, some women cannot function as a ...Paul, It is like, some women cannot function as a man, nor can they think sometimes as logically or calmly as a man (for some reason....some women cannot be that way, they are not built physically as such). They get to caught up in what is around them, the people, what they say....some women cannot "filter" so that they aren't that focused. I think the woman's movement, to the extent that they carried it, is not good; unless men and women are living in separate worlds. It is a man's world , deep down. We, as woman, haven't made progress....we damaged a lot for women. (The women's movement, in a way, really "backfired"). beachcoast7https://www.blogger.com/profile/17348238170525257587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-57631566589634407712014-02-18T18:52:11.757-08:002014-02-18T18:52:11.757-08:00ZW, I think the imprint, for example, can make it ...ZW, I think the imprint, for example, can make it more difficult to interact the way one might want socially. You may want to be free and easy when you are a teenager at a gathering, but are shy and afraid to put yourself out there. Was this person a timid baby (from a harsh birth), and was it compounded later in family life with being put down and not accepted, and therefore feels unworthy and not valued. And so, afraid of rejection again. I think imprints have many results and routes..They can affect the immune system making one more susceptible to illnesses. The imprints can make you so nervous that you can't concentrate on the task at hand, or you might get nervous tics. To get to the original imprint you have to confront it in the day-to-day activity of what's bothering you and go backward (in therapy). So I think it is more a question of who you are, what your imprints have made you become, rather than: what triggers you. SheriAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-64823051544100540692014-02-18T13:08:12.643-08:002014-02-18T13:08:12.643-08:00Well ZW,
It's all the more terrifying because...Well ZW,<br /><br />It's all the more terrifying because so much 'turnover' pays our bills. . . We are all enfranchised into the inefficiency. Most 'jobs' nowadays are non essential. But society demands we do them 'or else'.<br /><br />It's worth remembering that when human societies first got proper agriculture together many people, possibly the majority of people had a lot more time on their hands but virtually no 'wealth'.<br /><br />Since then much grain has flowed over the counter. Clerics learned to 'account'.<br /><br />Now there is this image of emerging societies from the distant past which is largely based on the scribing of the medieval period. This is the period when most modern societies started writing things down. Like who owed what to who for what and why. So, we are prejudiced by that view of development. IE: the feudal view. Pre feudal times people had time on their hands. All our modern societies have this notion (based on the medieval religious view of original sin) that idleness is evil and 'productivity' is good. The bloody Christian Normans brought this to England and forced everyone into servitude.<br /><br />Now it's exported around the world. <br /><br />I feel it is a corruption of the impetus to bring people together to serve a collective rather than to remain in a 'subsistence state'.<br />I mean it's good to collaborate but do the people need coercing into it ? Do we all need to be so bloody busy all the time ?<br /><br />Paul G.<br /><br /><br /><br /> Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-61052746200238176932014-02-18T01:25:51.357-08:002014-02-18T01:25:51.357-08:00Hi ZW,
The problem with that book the Primal Scre...Hi ZW,<br /><br />The problem with that book the Primal Scream is that it appeared at a time when absolutely every one and their dogs were writing books of a 'New Age' / Self Help variety.<br /><br />So the Primal Scream never stood out any further from the crowd than the readers consciousness allowed. By this I mean that on paper the Primal ideas and words seemed no more or less relevant than the spiritual ones. Except perhaps for those whose suffering kept them "AWAKE". . .<br /><br />Actually for quite a long time now various spiritual people with authority in their various movements have let us know more or less overtly that for those people with serious neurosis / psychosis spiritual development is not possible.<br /><br />This is quite a common 'belief' and allows for the most presumed hierarchy of worth ever known to wo/mankind :<br /><br />-"SPIRITUAL MATERIALISM"-<br /><br />It's very seductive because it allows anyone to assume what their own unresolved neurosis drives them to. These assumptions help people hold down pain and shift the potential for resonance away from themselves. It's just another class system.<br /><br />-"They are not so spiritual as Me"-. . . .<br /><br />As long as you wrap this up in pseudo science (esotericism) you can make your 'infantile' judgements sound really "grown up".<br /><br />I fell for it all too.<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-68994566867044353342014-02-17T13:05:11.465-08:002014-02-17T13:05:11.465-08:00ZW, good question and yes it has been discussed ex...ZW, good question and yes it has been discussed extensively over the years in this website. In my opinion, from my own experience, it is difficult to know whether the unconscious stress is the result of constant triggering or whether it is just constantly pushing toward the surface while I constantly push it back. I think the pain certainly gets closer to consciousness when there is a big trigger. Whatever the case, the pain is always there, and it affects stress hormone levels even when it is far from consciousness.<br />Nothing wrong with comparing humans to other animals. All vertebrates are made of the same stuff and they all feel pain. My brain behaves like a single-cell bacterium; crudely programmed to corkscrew into anything and everything without any real awareness.Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-48794139318447303402014-02-16T15:07:25.406-08:002014-02-16T15:07:25.406-08:00When I was in my twenties and full of angst I sear...When I was in my twenties and full of angst I searched for anything that might help, conventional therapy, self-help books, and yes the teachings of Zen and Eastern spiritualism. Finally, by accident I picked up a copy of the Primal Scream and that was it!<br /><br />I realized if there was anything to be gained by following a spiritual path it would have to happen after the pain of neurosis was resolved. I’ve seen many people who claim to follow a spiritual or religious path yet continually commit “sinful” acts – the imprint still at work - unchanged.<br /><br />I wasted a lot of time and money on books and conventional therapy! If we could put a dollar figure on the cost of Neurosis how much might it be? If you consider the costs of incarceration, divorce, addiction, disease, the loss of productivity due to people not living to their potential, etc.? The cost must go into the billions…more even….wow! <br />ZWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00656703166266453926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-48827185968813627252014-02-16T14:26:48.997-08:002014-02-16T14:26:48.997-08:00Richard, Paul, Frank, Nenad:
I got off on a tange...Richard, Paul, Frank, Nenad:<br /><br />I got off on a tangent with the positive imprint reference when of course what we’re concerned with here is the imprint as a negative process.<br /><br />I know comparing humans to animals can be a bit sketchy, but I only do so in an attempt to better understand how this process works.<br /><br />So, is it fair to say that animals need the imprint to help them survive because they could be attacked or eaten by other predators at a moment’s notice? Humans though, at the top of the food chain, don’t need to fear for their survival on a constant basis. So, an imprint can prevent a person from reaching their full potential and create unnecessary stress for no good reason (Neurosis).<br /><br />So, is the pain from an imprint relative? I mean, is stress created in the body only when the imprint is being triggered? If you could avoid the triggers by living in a protective shell with all of your needs met would the stress be present? Or does the imprint continually look for anything that resembles or resonates with the original pain regardless of how safe you try to make the environment? In which case, a certain level of stress would persist in the body.<br /><br />Thanks for helping me understand this better. I should really start reading the blog entries from beginning to end as it’s possible that my questions have already been answered.<br /> <br />Paul – I get your meaning on guiding children. I’ve been impressed with the writings of Jean Liedloff on the topic of child rearing.<br />ZWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00656703166266453926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-23253441664291203272014-02-13T16:11:29.016-08:002014-02-13T16:11:29.016-08:00Hi Marco,
did you take a piece of fruit too ?
I ...Hi Marco,<br /><br />did you take a piece of fruit too ?<br /><br />I was told not to smell the flowers because that would be like taking a bite out of a piece of fruit before giving it to someone to eat.<br /><br />These types of 'explanations' are incredibly seductive aren't they ? Also all that "Be Here Now " bullshit from Baba Ram Dass alias Richard Alpert.<br /><br />It's all cognitive bullshit wrapped up in a wafer thin spiritual package.<br /><br />I can't believe that I used to believe in it. . . yes I can because I now realise too well how much pain I was holding down and how effective these types of 'reasonings' are.<br /><br />It's all about avoidance. Like Zen koans and the zen master can point to the flag fluttering in the breeze and ask: "what is moving" ?<br /><br />Aaaand the answer is : "Mind is Moving". . .<br /><br />So what ? When I was also stuck in my head that sounded really clever eh ? Because it is also true. . . Wow, another noble truth. . .<br /><br />Jesus Christ all that stuff is such a load of conceited cognitive bullshit. I fell for it. . .<br /><br />Paul G.<br /><br />Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-12889058378006028942014-02-13T15:55:02.018-08:002014-02-13T15:55:02.018-08:00Hi Richard,
you are very right to make this point...Hi Richard,<br /><br />you are very right to make this point. There is a sham we can all fall for which is to try to "add something to our stature". What you are saying is that we can't add anything to our stature. . . We can't make children into something, all we can do is allow children to be who they are, as they grow up.<br /><br />Very true and thanks for putting me right. It's a good thing you are so good at spotting errors. . . Boy oh boy I used to think I was best at that. . .<br /><br />Must be losing my grip. . .<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-81465839117580680042014-02-13T15:41:56.425-08:002014-02-13T15:41:56.425-08:00Hi emmanuel,
I think some other scientists did a ...Hi emmanuel,<br /><br />I think some other scientists did a parallel study by getting people to repeat simple words or numbers in their head and achieved the same "bliss response". <br /><br />How they measured that I do not know.<br /><br />It's so subjective though. I do 'believe' the particular sounds of the various mantras are personality linked and if you do keep up your routine you do end up with a 'connection'. But whether it is a connection that aids feeling and Primalling or gets in the way, I don't know.<br /><br />I suspect it gets in the way because of the way it 'lulls' your senses. Literally lulls me blissfully. . .<br /><br />So what does Art think ? Art, why is TM in the questionnaire ?<br /><br />Paul G.<br /><br />Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-47966703741804370222014-02-13T15:30:39.183-08:002014-02-13T15:30:39.183-08:00Hi Richard,
Of course you're right.
But why ...Hi Richard,<br /><br />Of course you're right.<br /><br />But why do you like to tell others what things are not ? I'm a bit like that too, constantly on the alert for errors, missing parts, lost members. . . I must always have all my stuff sorted and ready to deal with it all. Never un prepared.<br /><br />Always on the look out for errors. . .<br /><br />Paul G.<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-65223984317882974712014-02-13T15:22:46.781-08:002014-02-13T15:22:46.781-08:00Hi coastbeach7,
-"but we as women are not c...Hi coastbeach7,<br /><br /> -"but we as women are not capable of doing (even thinking) the way a man does on a job" - ? <br /><br />That's quite a big statement in only a few words and I feel you really know what you mean but I don't quite understand, could you say some more on that please ?<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-78722567081349044572014-02-13T05:05:24.645-08:002014-02-13T05:05:24.645-08:00Paul!
Not so ..(to quote Art..) In my case at lea...Paul!<br /><br />Not so ..(to quote Art..) In my case at least...<br />I remember when I got my "Puja" (ceremony) from a female instructor (admiring her ability<br />all those SANKRIT words)<br />;I was so tired (as usual in my "grown-up" (that`s me?) I could hardly look straight..)<br /><br />And missed the following weekends (those were inclusive by my payment of 400DM)<br />inspite of the promise of gems of "wisdom of acting right" and the like<br />BECAUSE I did not even could concentrate ( I know "they" or M.Maharishi do not call it <br />concentration..) on my (?- not so.. again!!) SHIRING -<br /><br />Oh Lord (or whoever deity of hindi heaven is concerned about my betraying this sacred?? MANTRA. Please do forgive Me <br /><br />All joking aside :As Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti once said "one could as well use "coke" to <br />trancendental areas ..)<br /><br />I do regregt those 400DM till my passing to those areas!!<br />P.S: A friend of mine got his "heritage" to psychosis outbreaking by this mesmerizing <br />pseudo boon!! Yours emanuelemanuelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01380331335118885426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-67315603953327125902014-02-13T00:00:23.777-08:002014-02-13T00:00:23.777-08:00Art!
One disturbing result of research at the Kar...Art!<br /><br />One disturbing result of research at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden... they found that Litiun extends telomeres... which would explain that the shortening of them rely on aging!? What to say... what are they otherwise for? To keep us young?<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-28262231608021562242014-02-12T20:46:13.248-08:002014-02-12T20:46:13.248-08:00I just got off alcohol at the age of 61, mostly by...I just got off alcohol at the age of 61, mostly by using the Holosync meditation tapes for 3 years. This is the same meditation process Jon Christie suggested (many years ago now) might be a way for overloaded folks to get their pain down to a level where PT is ‘doable’ for them. Am I cured? NO. My body is still wracked with pain, I am on Cortisone, and I still suffer from depression: it’s like the highs and lows are evened out and I just feel kinda pointless and empty, most of the time. But it’s a least better than the destructiveness of booze. <br /><br />ErronAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-77306627180461909502014-02-12T20:32:15.754-08:002014-02-12T20:32:15.754-08:00Great post! Do you happen to know where this perso...Great post! Do you happen to know where this person did therapy, Art? Was it with one of the early institutes?<br /><br />ErronAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com