tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post8507979626288573424..comments2024-02-11T18:16:53.445-08:00Comments on Janov's Reflections on the Human Condition: The Simple Truth is Revolutionary: On the Difference Between Abreaction and Feeling (Part 9/9)Arthur Janovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16709863014923629409noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-59164578810720722052015-09-25T04:56:05.592-07:002015-09-25T04:56:05.592-07:00And my answer:
OK .. I stand corrected, but I have...And my answer:<br />OK .. I stand corrected, but I have seen this in action in my patients during relivings. They do go through evolution in reverse. I have seen it hundreds of times and do believe in what I observed. Read my work carefully cause I rely on this to guide me. And patients who abrogate evolution do get more neurotic…...such as reliving which drives people crazy. We have to follow evolution and its laws totally artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-62641802013263776632015-09-25T04:55:14.038-07:002015-09-25T04:55:14.038-07:00An email comment:
"Dear Art,
I am writing yo...An email comment:<br /><em>"Dear Art,<br /><br />I am writing you because of your recent article on Abreaction. I have written because of what i Consider a glaring error in your article. <br /><br />I am not criticizing Primal Therapy, mainly because Its helped me so much. But rather because I have an undergraduate degree in anthropology. Anthropology was my chosen field until I got my graduate degree in clinical psychology. <br /><br />I have also spent lots of time reading, in Anthropology, and Paleontology - Dinosaurs were my first love. <br /><br />Here is my point. <br /><br />That phrase that you write, ontology recapitulates phylogeny, is incorrect. There is no such thing. <br /><br />This idea also called Haeckels law, or the biogenetic law, was developed in the 19th century, and reflects antiquated views of evolution and also biology. There is simply no such thing. It was disproved by a scientist by the name of Walter Garstang, who said of the law, a house is not a shack with an addition, thus heckling Haekel. A famous quotation from the history of Science. <br /><br />Evolution is a very conservative process, and it retains structures of past evolutionary forms, but that does not mean a recapitulation of evolution is what were are seeing <br /><br />There is a different process, called Paedomorphisis, that better accounts for what is being seen. Paedomorphisis is the retention fetal characteristics in adulthood. <br /><br />This process is probably responsible for the prevalence of culture in our species, because it means that genes, don’t regulate our adult behavior to the degree they do in other species.<br /><br />Ashley Montague, one of your favorites wrote a whole book on the subject, called Growing Young. Stephen Jay Gould also wrote an complete work on the subject, called Ontogeny and Philogeny one of my favorites, he goes into it in detail. Its worth some thought. <br /><br /><br /><a href="http://embryo.asu.edu/home" rel="nofollow">http://embryo.asu.edu/home</a><br /><br /><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Garstang" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Garstang</a></em>"Arthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-16452001392948521052015-09-11T04:45:27.652-07:002015-09-11T04:45:27.652-07:00Katherina, brilliant! artKatherina, brilliant! artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-50372029346236777822015-09-10T05:29:36.303-07:002015-09-10T05:29:36.303-07:00that is where it could matter where we grow up. in...that is where it could matter where we grow up. in Italy or Germany. or Amazon jungle. what part of us is more stimulated... do we move to another country as children?<br />many years ago my father told me how during WWII the Italians were good soft occupators. they liked children and gave them things as opposed to Germans. Germans were dangerous. that was their experience. remember well of his words.<br /><br />it seems that the neocortex is getting more and more stimulated in modern society. along with these existential crisis we have it could make a perfect repressive tandem. maybe.vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-76630572937133316582015-09-09T05:41:47.847-07:002015-09-09T05:41:47.847-07:00It's difficult to convince the part of the bra...It's difficult to convince the part of the brain who's purpose it is to defend against pain, that It's ok to let down It's guard. The beauty of the feeling process is that you only need to let a little bit of feeling through to realise what a relief it is , and then the defence has a good reason to give itself up a little more (bit by bit), because It now has information from the feeling part of the brain, that It's safe to do so. <br /> <br />Primal feelings are not agony, they are only painful while in the resistance phase when the defence system is fighting against letting in the feeling, or when the defences are not working and there is an overload, in which case something can be done to repress some of the feeling load. Thank god for repression and thank god for Feelings. <br /> Thanks Bloggers for the opportunity to learn more!<br /><br />Katherina<br />Katherinaninahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16332073848086460414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-87760420456156497092015-09-08T04:27:53.244-07:002015-09-08T04:27:53.244-07:00Gary, The aim is that hurt goes in for repression ...Gary, The aim is that hurt goes in for repression as massive hurt and comes out over time as feelable feelings in therapy. Repression aids in minimalizing the pain into small amounts at a time. Art. Arthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-46707518300918988182015-09-08T04:23:45.373-07:002015-09-08T04:23:45.373-07:00Vuko, There are answers which I shall publish as s...Vuko, There are answers which I shall publish as soon as the journal publishes first. hang on artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-32001144026121646452015-09-07T10:12:28.947-07:002015-09-07T10:12:28.947-07:00to understand we have to see the danger inside. th...to understand we have to see the danger inside. the disaster, the specific human life threatening situation… than can makes sense to our pursuit for solutions. Without that we keep being on a wrong track, not enough or we can’t remain consistent.. it is hard to find solution to a problem we don’t see. Real, true problem. Mostly invisible to us. we don’t see it clearly. Just some undefined sensations… abstract. At least for me.<br /><br />can epigenetic show it objectively for us? is there somewhere a marker that react ONLY to this unique therapy. and nothing else. just like the patients say it does. Just like they feel it does. not sure. if not too expensive it is really interesting and important possibility. <br /><br />But we can take into consideration that most of us are humans in constant danger that we need protection from and have available many mechanisms to protect from that danger. it could lead to more explanations about ourselves. About what we do, think… feel and how to help.<br />vukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-11941128100128875142015-09-07T03:15:27.338-07:002015-09-07T03:15:27.338-07:00But Paul, animals and children (unless indoctrinat...But Paul, animals and children (unless indoctrinated) have no need of a mental defence structure through which to view the world, so why do adults?<br /><br />And not ALL adults by a long way.<br /><br />Are New Age, religions and right wing political ideologies and beliefs - racism, misogyny etc - not also functions of the mental defence system? I´m sure they fall away during primal therapy.<br /><br />I think any tenaciously held belief or habit which is destructive/inhumane/irrational is a defence against pain. To me that includes alcoholism, drug addiction, resistance to hearing about self destrucive dietary habits, violence towards women, children, animals, and so on virtually ad infinitum....<br /><br />LOL GaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-23179538035636633192015-09-07T03:02:20.513-07:002015-09-07T03:02:20.513-07:00Art; If the pain is hence only a pre-primal phase,...Art; If the pain is hence only a pre-primal phase, why does everyone describe primals as "extreme agony" (M. Holden), "agony" (yourself), etc?<br /><br />You didn´t answer my Q on abreaction, but i thought more on the point I made and came to two conclusions:<br /><br />1. Because it would be difficult to reliably verify whether new Primal Center patients have been abreacting or not before they begin therapy with you, starting out with a treatment programme other than an intensive could be inappropriate for them.<br /><br />2. If news got out that previously abreacting patients were given, say, long term twice weekly sessions at your center as an "abreaction treatment programme" to prepare them for an intensive, other people, worried about not getting to their feelings within an intensive and hence wasting a lot of money (which must be a common fear and could lead to abreaction), might tell the Center that they too have been abreacting in order to secure the same treatment programme.<br /><br />Perhaps a more viable alternative would be to make a point of checking on whether patients have been abreacting in the initial questionnaire/interview and if so, to (1) advise them on the effects of abreaction, and (2) to stop doing it for a minimum perod (which you would know best) before starting therapy with you, and any other ways to heal from its effects during this cooling off/healing period?<br /><br />What do you say? BW, GaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-31736067482562904182015-09-06T11:43:10.774-07:002015-09-06T11:43:10.774-07:00Hi,
Ok: - Although you can start with the idea th...Hi,<br /><br />Ok: - Although you can start with the idea that 'The Body Never Lies', you can't carry on assuming that the 'muscle' we call the brain should necessarily be believed when it (allegedly) gives us feedback. In short: "You don't want to believe anything in particular and least of all the concoctions in our own head".<br /><br />This is why we need supervision from some-one at least a 'fair bit' ahead of us. . .<br /><br />As Art once said: "It's not rocket science". . .<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-33893052210976878202015-09-04T14:22:34.825-07:002015-09-04T14:22:34.825-07:00Hi Gary,
people tried to discredit the '100th...Hi Gary,<br /><br />people tried to discredit the '100th monkey syndrome' and some say the numbers are 'dodgy'. . . At one point there were similar questions being asked about the crystal experiments being conducted around the world. . . Crystalisation being a very important part to chemistry and the developments of new compounds. Researchers found that different scientists around the world were conducting experiments independently and after a while where some had no success others started to get the results and then hey presto, after a 'magic number' then ALL the scientists started to get these good results. At one point the researchers started to check to see if the crystals from one laboratory had accidentally gotten carried across the world in the beards of fellow scientists and inadvertently dropped into the experiments elsewhere to try to explain this phenomena . . .<br /><br />Crystalisation seems to be a very important part of Human consciousness. . .<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-34839977309544564082015-09-04T11:37:04.908-07:002015-09-04T11:37:04.908-07:00Art & Gary,
But our whole 'neo-cortex'...Art & Gary,<br /><br />But our whole 'neo-cortex' is in cahoots with that regardless of neurosis. . . Once you stop believing in 'ideas' and 'thoughts about' stuff, you no longer are completely controlled by your own defense system. . . There's room for other more important and essential ingredients. . .<br /><br />Paul G.<br />Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-51226449259472746102015-09-04T07:21:12.822-07:002015-09-04T07:21:12.822-07:00Gary, absolutely. artGary, absolutely. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-41318437733987242632015-09-03T04:57:06.035-07:002015-09-03T04:57:06.035-07:00Paul: Do you remember I wrote about the 100th monk...Paul: Do you remember I wrote about the 100th monkey (Ken Keyes book) experiment in the 1950s on this blog? On a Japanese Island the practice of monkeys washing their sweet potatoes before eating them in seawater spread. Suddenly, the practice appeared spontaneously amonst large sections of simlar monkeys on other Japanese islands, and the mainland, IMMEDIATELY after 100 of the original monkeys had adopted the practice, and with NO POSSIBLE CONTACT BETWEEN THE GROUPS ON DIFFERENT ISLANDS AND THE MAINLAND. <br />It has always puzzled me how evolution could bestow identical evolutionary characteristics across entire species, hundreds of thousand of animals. What power, what intelligence, changes animals in an identical way if that change does not start with just ONE animal, and then the change is passed on via succeeding generations, which woud take thousands of years to accomplish, and even then, the previous "models" would continue through all the other individual "family" lines? Gary Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-3073541908137670492015-09-03T04:00:49.708-07:002015-09-03T04:00:49.708-07:00-" My approach resembles no other. That is wh...-" My approach resembles no other. That is why it is revolutionary. Try not to fit it into a thousand other ideas and take it for what it is"-.<br />I have never found a single person to whom i´ve tried to explain primal therapy who doesn´t try to understand it within a conceptual framework with which they are already familiar. I think that is because of neurosis. I feel that neurosis makes people try to fit things into a pre-formed mental framework because that framework is a function of the defence system. It views the world in such a way as to keep feelings repressed, so resists challenges. GaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-6420953011616941172015-09-03T01:47:46.532-07:002015-09-03T01:47:46.532-07:00Gary, there is pain mostly before you feel it, the...Gary, there is pain mostly before you feel it, then it becomes a feeling. But abreaction is deadly and very difficult to overcome. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-60277559326506984232015-09-02T04:52:13.767-07:002015-09-02T04:52:13.767-07:00Art: Then why would "Bill" in The Feelin...Art: Then why would "Bill" in The Feeling Child (or The Primal Revolution?) write "I don´t know how to put that sort of pain down on paper?" or YOU describe one of your own birth primals as "an AGONISING 40 hour birth primal"? if it is "a pain that doesn´t hurt"?<br />Also, if long term abreaction takes, as I understand you, at least many months to recover from before someone can begin to primal, does that not mean that a primal intensive at the beginning of therapy will be a waste of time and money for those patients? Or is there another treatment plan for them? Just asking. BW, Gary Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-40478001880280238182015-09-02T00:36:56.034-07:002015-09-02T00:36:56.034-07:00I am so eager to read your bio, Art. Please: YOU h...I am so eager to read your bio, Art. Please: YOU hang on too ;-)raindoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09714998714610881831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-72338238272828379712015-09-01T08:12:28.969-07:002015-09-01T08:12:28.969-07:00Paul, I just finished writing about this in my lon...Paul, I just finished writing about this in my long article on epigenetics. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-83261544470433227662015-08-31T09:14:12.595-07:002015-08-31T09:14:12.595-07:00Hi, off topic but more encouraging journalism:
-&...Hi, off topic but more encouraging journalism:<br /><br />-"Unlocking traumatic memories: Brain stimulants linked to psychological repression"-.<br /><br /> By Sean Martin.<br /> August 17, 2015 16:03 BST 3 11 <br /><br />A new study on lab mice has found a way to access traumatic memories. This may serve as a breakthrough on how to psychologically treat patients who have repressed memories of traumatic events such as childhood abuse.<br /><br />The report, published in Nature Neuroscience, described two amino acids in the form of glutamate and GABA as the Yin and Yang of the brain which are normally balanced. Glutamate is the chemical that helps us store memories whereas GABA calms us and helps us to sleep.<br /><br />There are two kinds of GABA receptors, one which balances glutamate to help us to remain calm, whereas the others are extra-synaptic GABA receptors which adjust brain waves and mental states. "Extra-synaptic GABA receptors change the brain's state to make us aroused, sleepy, alert, sedated, inebriated or even psychotic," said a press release for the report.<br /><br />Scientists from Northwestern University found that these amino acids also help encode memories of a fear-inducing event and hide these memories away from the conscience. "The brain functions in different states, much like a radio operates at AM and FM frequency bands," said principal investigator Dr. Jelena Radulovic, the Dunbar Professor in Bipolar Disease at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine.<br /><br />"It's as if the brain is normally tuned to FM stations to access memories, but needs to be tuned to AM stations to access subconscious memories. If a traumatic event occurs when these extra-synaptic GABA receptors are activated, the memory of this event cannot be accessed unless these receptors are activated once again, essentially tuning the brain into the AM stations."<br /><br />Testing on mice, the researchers infused the hippocampus – in the medial temporal lobe of the brain - with gaboxadol, a drug that stimulates extra-synaptic GABA receptors. "It's like we got them a little inebriated, just enough to change their brain state," Radulovic said.<br /><br />The mice were then placed in a box where they were given a small electric shock. They were then returned to the box the next day but seemingly didn't remember being shocked. However, they were then given gaboxadol which stimulated the GABA receptors and placed in again and froze with fear as they awaited an electric shock.<br /><br />Radulovic said: "This establishes when the mice were returned to the same brain state created by the drug, they remembered the stressful experience of the shock." The findings suggest that some individuals react to a traumatic experience by activating the extra-synaptic GABA system and form inaccessible traumatic memories.<br /><br />"The findings show there are multiple pathways to storage of fear-inducing memories, and we identified an important one for fear-related memories. This could eventually lead to new treatments for patients with psychiatric disorders for whom conscious access to their traumatic memories is needed if they are to recover."<br /><br />I found this on Yahoo News. It's interesting that what was once merely 'tacit' reference to 'cure' through epigenetic research is now becoming 'overt' reference to cure through the idea of retrieval / re-living. . . This is good news. It shows there's a more open acceptance of the truth. It's the second article I have seen recently, the first in the Telegraph (UK), that was referenced from this blog too.<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-32652623940752928182015-08-31T05:54:53.367-07:002015-08-31T05:54:53.367-07:00Paul: Let us all stay far away from those drugs. ...Paul: Let us all stay far away from those drugs. They are dangerous. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-13547662478911643422015-08-31T05:54:06.283-07:002015-08-31T05:54:06.283-07:00Flemming you are very welcome. It also reassures ...Flemming you are very welcome. It also reassures me that there are people out there who get it. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-830069279068533462015-08-31T04:54:45.035-07:002015-08-31T04:54:45.035-07:00Hi Paul
Ayahuesca is becoming big now. My neighbou...Hi Paul<br />Ayahuesca is becoming big now. My neighbour friend is into it and is set to train under a Peruvian Shaman using Ayahuesca as the main "consciousness raising" tool. <br />He believes Ayahuesca to be the only necessity in safely reliving & resolving all of ones pain, the logical implication being that South American tribal societies have been primalling away all their pain for thousands of years.<br />Yeah right. Amazing how stupid primal pain can make people.<br />Things change and of course our pain makes us eagerly swallow announcements of "breakthroughs" and "new discoveries". Easy to manipulate. Easy to fool. Very.<br />Plus ca change, plus cést la meme chose. GaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-49088215340253552832015-08-30T07:41:25.535-07:002015-08-30T07:41:25.535-07:00Hi,
-so much of a bee in my bonnet have I got abou...Hi,<br />-so much of a bee in my bonnet have I got about Psychedelics as a 'cure' for neurosis / trauma that I researched Ayahuasca online to see if any real research has been conducted into the drug (which is essentially DMT). I came across references to Dr. Gabor Mate. Apparently, up until 2011 he was of a similar opinion to Art and sympathetic to Primal. He understood addicts as pre-natally traumatised and therefore 'self prescribers'. Then, in my delvings, I was reminded that Dr Mate had been in touch with Art and I discovered various references to him on this blog (great).<br /><br />However, to my horror and confusion I have discovered that from 2011 Dr Mate has become a proponent of Ayahuasca. . . Aand the worrying thing is that the medical establishment have jumped onto him countering his views (same as Arts) by refuting the 'statistical' evidence that "trauma = addiction / addiction = trauma". . .<br /><br />- I think the issue here is that PRE NATAL trauma is hard to measure and therefore cannot easily be incorporated into the figures. . . Thus the establishment can put his theories down as "inaccurate reductionism" (their words). . . and that to me sounds like DARVO; IE: the reductionists accusing the humanists of reductionism. . .<br /><br />Anyway, back to the point. How & why does Dr Mate think Ayahuasca can actually help? I mean, as far as I can now see (particularly after Arts 9 point article on abreaction), the 'psychedelic experience' is a highly BELIEVABLE SHORT CIRCUIT and could easily make REAL CONNECTION more difficult. So, that which could lead some people into a "realisation" of their condition might also make their condition MORE repressed? I mean, take addiction, if a belief system somehow becomes more 'involved', is it not possible that it can produce a kind of palliation, even allowing the serotonin system to somehow become more efficient? And lets face it, this IS what Dr Mate is saying. He is saying Ayehuasca resets the serotonin system.<br /><br />Now then, my experiences of LSD & Psylocybin many years ago was that for a long time after (after I stopped) I appeared to myself to be 'a new man'. . . But only much later did I start to crash. . . So, if people are reporting "Improvements" and deep insight and therefore (so called) life changes; well, how long is this going to last for?<br /><br />Last but not least the literature on Ayehuasca and the "quotes" from people who've reported positive changes are extremely seductive. I mean, I'm one of the most suspicious of old hippies nowadays and for a moment I started to believe the rhetoric. . .<br />I mean, despite knowing Primal Theory inside out and having some feelings I have started to feel "drawn in" yet again to the magical proposition that some amazing naturally occurring drug could help me. . . Worse, I am starting to buy into the 'idea' that I might be MISSING OUT on something if I don't do Ayahuasca. . .<br /><br />And isn't that exactly what is happening? People, love lost, seeking and finding false gods. . .<br /><br />Paul G.<br /> Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.com