tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post2984310940590183103..comments2024-02-11T18:16:53.445-08:00Comments on Janov's Reflections on the Human Condition: The Simple Truth is Revolutionary: On the Use of Statistics as "Proof" of Our IdeasArthur Janovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16709863014923629409noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-13498311066347531662012-05-10T13:50:45.802-07:002012-05-10T13:50:45.802-07:00Hi AnttiJ,
-"Then she was lying on her back ...Hi AnttiJ,<br /><br />-"Then she was lying on her back and screaming "I need you!" instead of "I hate you!". Which is, if I understand correctly, as it should be. Moving from anger to what the therapy is really about - need, and reliving unmeet needs".<br /><br />Yes and the bitterness of betrayal turns into the sweetness of need. <br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-24108023745845189202012-05-09T14:51:45.891-07:002012-05-09T14:51:45.891-07:00thanks antti. it's always better to give the ...thanks antti. it's always better to give the direct link because search results differ from one region to the next. the video you have presented is different to the video i saw, but it is taken from the same group session. the video i saw showed the woman hitting the wall, but her back was more loose and snake-like. the part that i found the most disturbing is not actually shown in your video. it is a man in the background, moaning. his moans resonated with me....i felt like i knew exactly what he was feeling; he was very close to something dark and awful, but not quite in it. he was deep in the first line. well that's what it felt like to me. i moan like that in my night terrors, which i haven't experienced for a while.Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-89210228353401906352012-05-09T12:43:26.160-07:002012-05-09T12:43:26.160-07:00Art,
The undertone of what I write... I know what...Art,<br /><br />The undertone of what I write... I know what you did to get primal therapy to Sweden and I regret deep your failure. But as you know, the question is just as right or wrong to ask as there are people here in Sweden... the answer may be yes or no as many times ... it all depends on how the issue is addressed... how to get a brain to "listen" ... a brain that is in defense against it self. We can addresera the issue to the public!<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-35328310007170888812012-05-09T11:29:41.456-07:002012-05-09T11:29:41.456-07:00Frank as you may not know. I went to Sweden yea...Frank as you may not know. I went to Sweden years ago at my own expense to offer primal therapy free to the swedish people. I gave a presentation to your health service and within minutes they read a paper already prepared before I got there, that my therapy was not acceptable. You know I don't think mental illness should have a price but unfortunately, I don't have a choice. I also offered it to the English and got the same response. ArtArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-11042889413271707582012-05-09T01:43:01.550-07:002012-05-09T01:43:01.550-07:00Andrew,
I agree with you about one thing and that...Andrew,<br /><br />I agree with you about one thing and that is that Sweden does not really deserve a presence of Janovs primal therapy ... but that is far from what you think is possibilities for success here... if we get a fast foothold in Sweden… that is of the dignity far more important than what is imaginable in the rest world. <br /><br />You are talking about the weather as something of importance… Andrew where is the people located? I think the Swedish people are more suitable as religion and dictatorships is not as enforced as in many other places in the world… a real big question.<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-29968233576837376792012-05-08T14:34:05.803-07:002012-05-08T14:34:05.803-07:00Art: I don't know - it should be researched (g...Art: I don't know - it should be researched (get Richard to research to do it - he's very patient and thorough with tedious stuff like that). <br /><br />I would guess a place which is a bit 3rd world world-ish but with nice safe pockets. A place like China or India, where people can speak English as a second language at least. Or maybe some place in southern Asia or south America.<br /><br />But if a move were to be made then you want to pick the best possible place. Sweden will almost certainly not be it. It's one of those hyper-regulated places like most of the long-been industrialised world.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-12289555263004856852012-05-08T13:48:04.860-07:002012-05-08T13:48:04.860-07:00Richard & Art: It's a clip on YouTube, you...Richard & Art: It's a clip on YouTube, you can find it by just entering "Arthur Janov interview" (without the quotes) in YouTube's search bar, it's the second result. Or you can just copy & paste this into your browser address bar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iyeUm9iIcM. It's only 5 min 59 sec. long.<br /><br />I came across the clip before, but as soon as I saw it was in French, I didn't bother watching further, as I don't know enough French to understand it (would like to, though. There are many languages I'd like to learn). Anyway, now that Richard mentioned it I watched it, just to see the people primalling. I have to say that I didn't notice any "exaggerated" s-motion when the woman was on her knees and pounding the padded wall and screaming "I hate you!". It looked to me like how the back would normally move in that position. <br /><br />Then she was lying on her back and screaming "I need you!" instead of "I hate you!". Which is, if I understand correctly, as it should be. Moving from anger to what the therapy is really about - need, and reliving unmeet needs.AnttiJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12010248788384946781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-77192932181105018362012-05-08T05:13:40.998-07:002012-05-08T05:13:40.998-07:00Andrew: And that is where? artAndrew: And that is where? artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-9273220302417583432012-05-08T00:22:27.106-07:002012-05-08T00:22:27.106-07:00Richard: Sort of. What were you doing watching fr...Richard: Sort of. What were you doing watching french TV? artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-36540350685082266022012-05-07T22:04:47.023-07:002012-05-07T22:04:47.023-07:00To hell with Sweden. If you're going to do ano...To hell with Sweden. If you're going to do another center then do it in the best place in globe. A place where resources are cheap, the weather is awesome, and the rules are loose so trainee primal therapists don't have waste incredible amounts of time and money getting their masters in psychology.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-61992227712723652212012-05-07T18:33:37.740-07:002012-05-07T18:33:37.740-07:00when you poke a simple animal it will squirm in it...when you poke a simple animal it will squirm in it's most natural motion...a bit like poking an earthworm (don't do it....it's cruel) or poking a salamander (it swims frantically and blindly crashing into things) or electrocuting a human patient (convulsions). an old african punishment involved rectally impaling a person on a large vertical pole. the person would involuntarily squirm in the 's' motion until he/she was dead. perhaps the 's' motion is the last line of defense - a final attempt to escape.<br /><br />art, my brother showed me a downloaded video in which you and france were being interviewed. you were all speaking in french. i can't find it now. the interviewer presented some footage of people primalling? i'm not sure if it was real, but it looked real to me. every time a woman pounded her fists against something, her back moved in an exaggerated 's' motion. she was kind of screaming/scolding at someone: "i hate you! i hate you!" maybe she was reliving on the first AND second line? do you remember that video?Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-78059049148622987032012-05-07T12:42:46.798-07:002012-05-07T12:42:46.798-07:00Paul: Usually it is the "s" motion like ...Paul: Usually it is the "s" motion like the water moccasin or the dolphin. I am sure there are many other animals with the basic motion. Art i have seen it hundreds of times, never is it suggested. ArtArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-6875741227085100142012-05-07T12:17:19.298-07:002012-05-07T12:17:19.298-07:00Frank: Not sure and I am not sure what you mean? ...Frank: Not sure and I am not sure what you mean? You would need a training and research center, and then yes we would help. At my age I am not going to live in Sweden. But we may have volunteers. ArtArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-19990832515412091872012-05-07T07:43:23.907-07:002012-05-07T07:43:23.907-07:00Hi Wolfram, Art & all,
My grandson used to fi...Hi Wolfram, Art & all,<br /><br />My grandson used to fishtail from side to side in my hands as a baby looking up at a light in the ceiling, really fixed on it for four or five minutes. . . it seemed like it could have gone on longer. He's done this involuntarily several times as a baby and it really impressed me. But it was side to side.<br /><br />Do primal patients ever do side to side? Could it be there are various different 'strokes' for different people/ stages of development? Maybe my grandson was just fidgeting (?) didn't seem like it though. Please forgive the pun but I am totally out of my depth here aren't I?<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-91270632780167455322012-05-07T00:03:52.741-07:002012-05-07T00:03:52.741-07:00Art... a difficult issue with just a few words.
If...Art... a difficult issue with just a few words.<br />If we... within the Swedish Society could obtain the money to an center... with all the research necessary to develop primal therapy... are you then prepared to move the center to Sweden? <br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-32022947815679651482012-05-06T15:04:06.422-07:002012-05-06T15:04:06.422-07:00Wolfram: you are right. How did you see what very...Wolfram: you are right. How did you see what very few have ever seen? but the movements are involuntary and go on for quite a while. The scientists at UCLA were amazed. What I am sure of as that we evolved we held onto some ancient animal form but i will have to consult some specialists. art We will show this film and a lecture by the man who underwent it soon artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-70682619697856332552012-05-06T06:02:43.101-07:002012-05-06T06:02:43.101-07:00Art,
I saw the reptilian-like movements in a video...Art,<br />I saw the reptilian-like movements in a video of a primal at your center in 1996. The movements were up-down, lasting very long. Reptiles (salamanders, crocodiles) move left-right. Mammals prefer to move up-down. Those mammals who developed to "fish" again during evolution (whales, dolphins) have a horizontal tail fin. So I was clueless about the reptilian origin of the movements I saw in the video. What is the connection, in your opinion, apart from brain structures?<br />Best wishes,<br />WolframWolframnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-69969268031884597942012-05-05T02:54:06.902-07:002012-05-05T02:54:06.902-07:00And my answer: I am sure you are right, but I don&...And my answer: I am sure you are right, but I don't care much. Recently I had a talk with the head of stem cell therapy in Texas. His colleagues were calling for statistical studies and he did not care much. They treated a lot of people included himself and see the amazing result. The governor did not need statistics. Yes, the shrinks and science will need all those studies but I clearly cannot do it. We have not made a profit in years, not even breaking even, and so cannot afford to do any studies, except we do studies every day with our patients, and I am happy with that. Yes, we need studies but others will have to do it as I won't spend my life trying to find funds to do it. Besides there is a syndrome, "I won't believe it even if you prove it," which is daunting. We did three major double blind studies in Europe and no one seemed to care. I published in peer-reviewed journals and no one seemed to care. If we lay out the foundation for an amazing therapy and no one seems to care I doubt that any studies will change anyone. I provide science within our therapy and keep up with all that is new as best as I can; that is my role. If others want to do science, statistical science I am all for it. Meanwhile we go on treating patients from 26 countries and do very well. Their wellness is what I am after. Yes, I know we have to document it but it is too hard to do it. We have no money and no personnel. So be it. art Don't you think that after 15 books in my therapy and 250 blogs someone from the scientific community would take notice? Not one. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-28123555992023557592012-05-05T02:43:34.500-07:002012-05-05T02:43:34.500-07:00An email comment:
"
Indeed, statistics can be...An email comment:<br />"<i><br />Indeed, statistics can be used to "prove" anything which is why we have the phrase, "lies, damn lies, and statistics." There's a great book written in the 1950s called, How to Lie With Statistics. <br /><br />But in primal research, you can't just brush them aside and say that statistics aren't necessary. Statistics do one thing and one thing only -- they show whether or not there's a relationship between two phenomena, for example, therapy and feeling better. With a controlled trial, you can go beyond that and demonstrate whether or not therapy is the cause of people feeling better. <br /><br />Most therapies have an active research program. CBT, EMDR, psychodynamic talk therapy -- all have statistical studies to show their techniques "work." That's what Art is raging at. What does it mean for a therapy to "work?" But don't blame statistics, blame the underlying assumptions of the study! That's what the entire body of Art's work does. <br /><br />Without statistical studies, primal will forever languish on the fringe. You can't just say that "feelings are their own validation" and have the scientific community accept that. Ironically, it's true, but only for the people having those feelings. Those who don't feel need some form of proof and the gold standard in medicine is the controlled clinical trial. Anecdotes, even dozens of anecdotes, are worthless. <br /><br />The single most important study that would put primal on the map is the primal therapy outcomes study. Simply enroll a hundred or more people who come into therapy and follow them for 1, 2, 5, 10 years or more. Measure everything: psychological symptoms, quality of life, physical signs, cortisol, aging markers, disease markers. It is not that hard to do but it is expensive. Despite being expensive, it is eminently doable. <br /><br />Note: an observational study would still not show causality - that would take a controlled trial where a case-matched group of people who were taking some other form of therapy were compared with those taking primal therapy. The intent is to show that it is primal itself and not some other factor, such as an understanding therapist, transference, or a changed life situation, that's making people feel and function better. <br /><br />That's how the game is played in science. Those of us familiar with primal know there's no way to show it works to someone who can't feel. There will always be skeptics. They will always come up with bizarre explanations, like it's the therapist-patient relationship that heals. But if you play the game right and show good data, the skeptics will have less ground on which to attack. That's how every scientific advance is made. When Darwin presented his theory of natural selection, the skeptics howled and shrieked and showered ridicule on him. But his findings were irrefutable and were later confirmed...with statistical studies. <br /><br />Bruce"</i>Arthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-81415635518364917072012-05-05T02:19:03.692-07:002012-05-05T02:19:03.692-07:00An email comment:
"Art, luminous as usual. I ...An email comment:<br /><i>"Art, luminous as usual. I just wish it didn't have to hurt so. I've been with you now almost 40 years and have felt and grown a lot but lately, at age 65 and in a relatively new marriage, I am amazed at how much pain is left to relive. The dark matter of very early stuff!! Anyway, keep it coming. "</i>Arthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-28308578702268775272012-05-05T02:18:38.235-07:002012-05-05T02:18:38.235-07:00Richard, Please see my books for some of these ans...Richard, Please see my books for some of these answers. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-13326767992416513512012-05-02T21:50:55.824-07:002012-05-02T21:50:55.824-07:00With profound repression an individual can easily ...With profound repression an individual can easily live up to the demands of what their society wants. If your therapy achieves that end then it is a success. But successful at what, exactly? Do we want this success? Do we want well-functioning automations that don't know what to do with themselves other than live up to other people's expectations? Or do we want living, maybe behaviourally imperfect, human beings who understand that life is more than about f.u.n.c.t.i.o.n.i.n.g? Being able to act-out being normal is not the same as being normal.<br /><br />It's a bit like education. Before you praise your Johnny for getting straight A's, you might like to look closer at what those tests test, and what those scores do and don't actually mean. There is in fact a universe of controversy and subjectivity inside our world of education. The same can be said for much of the world of psychology, I believe.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-16992545576960938142012-05-02T21:03:48.228-07:002012-05-02T21:03:48.228-07:00Art,
1. what is the average reduction in cortiso...Art,<br /><br />1. what is the average reduction in cortisol in your high-cortisol patients after two years of therapy?<br /><br />2. what is the average increase in cortisol in your low-cortisol patients after two years of therapy?<br /><br />3. what is the average reduction in heart rate in your sympaths after two years?<br /><br />4. what is the average increase in oxytocin after two years?<br /><br />5. how many of your suicidal patients kill themselves after two years?<br /><br />6. what is the average reduction in blood pressure after two years?<br /><br />7. how many of your child molesters refrain from molestation after two years of therapy?<br /><br />8. how many of your alcoholics refrain from drinking after two years of therapy?<br /><br />etc.<br /><br />etc.<br /><br /><br />just give me some facts. i want to chat with some politicians. politicians are surprisingly stupid. they love real facts, and they love stupidly fabricated facts. in fact, they will love any fact that seems to support their cause. if they like what they read, they will investigate. <br /><br />politicians are always exposing their weaknesses, their secret desires, even their sexual preferences. they are unwittingly transparent. art, i am good at manipulating transparent people. as a child, i had many years to practice the skill of manipulating my parents, with great success. this is my skill and i wish to offer it. just give me some facts please. let me do the rest.Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.com