tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post2409607563109320100..comments2024-02-11T18:16:53.445-08:00Comments on Janov's Reflections on the Human Condition: The Simple Truth is Revolutionary: On the Need to BelieveArthur Janovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16709863014923629409noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-58150739220891474322011-11-15T23:31:48.642-08:002011-11-15T23:31:48.642-08:00Hi,
postscript on belief:
Have you noticed how i...Hi,<br /><br />postscript on belief:<br /><br />Have you noticed how infuriated we can become in the face of other peoples' beliefs? <br /><br />It is like the clash of shields. I have been wondering how the hypocrisy of projection can maintain its' grip in me and others. <br /><br />Driving a car is such a good example because no matter how well 'adapted' we are, no matter how courteous we cultivate our driving style to be, lurking there in the depths is some sort of weird monster who can only see the faults of others.<br /><br />How is it that just as we are committing some misdemeanour ourselves, we can explode at the other driver (with self righteous indignation) for the very same crime?<br /><br />Actually, it's not just in the 'moment' of a driving situation either is it? I mean, we can cultivate and up-hold totally hypocritical beliefs over a long time period.<br /><br />If there is a boundary between the split off emotional content (repression) and that boundary is marked by rigid beliefs (on the aware side) then these inflexible 'set points' form hurdles too high to see over (or through), let alone jump. So, I think that beliefs particularly about other criminals 'stem' from our own distorted imprints and there is utterly nothing we can do in the face of this resonating reflection of our own inadequacy.<br /><br />We can have strong minds (believing it to be wrong to explode) and quell the impulse to point the finger accusingly; we can temporarily be in a 'whole' and integrated state (perhaps in the hours after a re-living experience, before the pressure builds up again, or after some positive experience that leaves us feeling temporarily 'high'). . . but sure enough, those set points, those 'imprints' marking the boundary of conscious awareness stand resolutely (like the Berlin Wall) in the same place they always were, namely, IN THE WAY, OBSTRUCTIVELY.<br /><br />It would seem that tears are the only solution powerful enough to dissolve such hard concrete.<br /><br />Oh Lord, please let it rain tears on the walls of repression!<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-32946346210140777842011-11-14T12:00:22.154-08:002011-11-14T12:00:22.154-08:00Hi Jack,
though I side very much with your un-equ...Hi Jack,<br /><br />though I side very much with your un-equivical point of view (that we are feeling beings) I can't agree that belief is a verb and therefore something we 'do'.<br /><br />To me, 'belief' seems to be something that happens to us. It is part of repression, a rigid and inflexible distortion of the reality of our pain. A colour, a tone, a sensation and also a pattern that repeats it's own 'intrusive' rhythm.<br /><br />-"Oh no, there I go again"! Out pops my belief / prejudice.<br /><br />I'm sure we don't 'do' belief. . . I'm sure it happens to us. We are powerless in the face of the repressive mechanism. <br /><br />If Art is to be believed though, and you, and Jan and various others, well then, there is hope because we can undo these 'fixations'.<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-43060679057251920992011-11-14T11:42:50.685-08:002011-11-14T11:42:50.685-08:00Hi,
-"When I say to friends that I do not be...Hi,<br /> -"When I say to friends that I do not believe in anything, they generally disagree with me"-.<br /><br />I've been scratching my head to comprehend how repression and belief are connected. I have sort of concluded that belief is the boundary surrounding repressed content. IE: behind this boundary is the unknown of what we have subconsciously repressed and on this side of that boundary we have a 'rigid fixation' (belief) that both defends and deflects but also simultaneously expresses the colour of our repressions; (how could the wrapper not reveal something of the content)?<br /><br />I feel the most dangerous belief system is that of repression being an absolute end in itself; which is what most people presume (without really thinking about it at all). For example most people actually believe the past and skeletons and sleeping dogs and silt at the bottom of the pond should be left in the past, the closet, asleep and not stirred up at any cost respectively. . .<br /><br />So repression becomes a self fulfilling prophesy in the belief that suppression is its' correct representative. Furthermore, this stance guarantees the infamous 'projection' and 'acting out' (or 'in'). Now, organised society (religion) has made oppression out of it, has it not?<br /><br />Once one believes that expressing pain and re-living trauma is bad / a sign of weakness / too scary, etc, etc ones' experience of 'resonance' (both internally and from other suffering individuals) becomes distorted at this boundary by the perception that one has been 'infringed' by the 'negativity' of others (or even of oneself). How much you buy into this is a measure of your own neurosis.<br /><br />Thus the 'expressors' become the scapegoats for the 'repressors' who believe holding it all in is good and letting it all out is bad.<br /><br />So, when something goes wrong (and I'm subconsciously full of pain) if any-one else is remotely involved in the transaction, well then, it probably is their fault, particularly if they're the ones getting excited.<br /><br />You can see that large organised religion is a rather desperate attempt to put the responsibility for projection a long way out of the groups' own boundary, so that at least the members can share a 'Common Belief' and therefore experience some intimacy with each other, albeit temporarily, despite the seething mass of pain boiling away under the collective sub-conscious.<br /><br />Alice Miller had a lot to say about this and you can see how 'militancy' and 'cosmetics' become the social yin & yang of collective repression.<br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-20740935913805731182011-11-14T10:04:17.302-08:002011-11-14T10:04:17.302-08:00Fascinating glimpse into the 1970's Art. Than...Fascinating glimpse into the 1970's Art. Thanks. I was reading the book by Laing's son, Adrian in which you are mentioned. Obviously you knew or met laing. Just from reading about him and watching it does seem that he was someone who in trying to escape from working class roots did lean towards seeking attention and showing off a little. But, like yourself, he was a brilliant man in many ways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-15735319118968266492011-11-13T11:59:52.600-08:002011-11-13T11:59:52.600-08:00Steve: Hey you left out Zimmerman. I don't ...Steve: Hey you left out Zimmerman. I don't believe in Zimmerman. I just believe in me....yoko and me.......artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-85465078595490437892011-11-13T11:54:17.851-08:002011-11-13T11:54:17.851-08:00Will: Ronnie and I hung out together in London. H...Will: Ronnie and I hung out together in London. He was not a serious operator. He never read my book but read a chapter or two in a bookshop on the north end and decided he would go me one better and invent the conception trauma and other such nonsense. His aim was always to be as far out as possible, gave serious drugs to patients and never was a student of science. He was charming and therefore got away with a lot. I saw what he did with psychotics and it was not pretty, had them reliving birth without really knowing about reliving. He simply was not aware of what he was doing with patients; the more dramatic the better he seemed to think. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-80692842061512411172011-11-13T02:54:34.148-08:002011-11-13T02:54:34.148-08:00incidentally Art, Laing was obviously aware of you...incidentally Art, Laing was obviously aware of your work and actually is on youtube talking about many of the same themes you address e.g. the effect of pre-natal and birth trauma on the development of personality. His own therapy was very much an eclectic mix I believe, so that for some people he would offer existential therapy or his version of primal therapy or at other times just offer his presence and make himself available. It would be fascinating to you know what you thing of Laing's existential-phenomenological approach to mental illness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-26037079296655879952011-11-13T02:40:37.429-08:002011-11-13T02:40:37.429-08:00magical thinking is a way by which humans have tri...magical thinking is a way by which humans have tried to believe they have some control over their environment e.g. praying for rain, divine retributione etc. Similar with the current finacial crisis - most people have a tendency to believe everything will turn out 'okay' in the end and politicians use this to buy more time and manage perceptions. <br /> I have been reading a bit of R D Laing recently, someone who Art met, so I read, very briefly in London in 1972 for the screening of the documentary Asylum (worth a look on youtube by the way). Laing's thing was that people get screwed over with the word 'love' because people believe that when someone says they 'love you' that they do. In fact it is their need to be loved that sustains the belief that they are, when in fact they are not. It is this discrepancy that causes many problems according to Laing. It is a case that you must not believe what your brain wants you to believe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-30441170622630379932011-11-12T02:25:38.276-08:002011-11-12T02:25:38.276-08:00Construct sentences is my need… need as in itself ...Construct sentences is my need… need as in itself explain the amount of my pain… in itself as long as I don’t know what it does ... construct sentences for its purpose to ease pain.<br /><br />Construct sentences that lead to my pain… I can do when I am about to know what construct sentences mean ... when I can stay away from construction of sentences in sense to feel the necessity of what it contains… lie down and feel the pain when it came about and the need of why.<br /><br />The desire of "sex" measure my pain where the "desire" took place to ease my pain ... pain as "sex" relieves. Sex in quotes to explain ... it is not about sex ... it’s about unbearable pain… pain which found its way through the physiological act need of real sex is.<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-10375510509300881102011-11-12T02:19:02.159-08:002011-11-12T02:19:02.159-08:00I am with Jack on this one. When I say to friends ...I am with Jack on this one. When I say to friends that I do not believe in anything, they generally disagree with me. I must surely believe that the sun will shine each day and barring accidents I must believe that I will surely wake up each morning. But of course they either do not understand what I mean or perhaps they are defending themselves against what they perceive as an attack on their beliefs. What I mean is I do not have a belief system. So I do not believe in any God, be it the Christian God or the ancient Gods of the Greeks or any God for that matter. As Jack suggests, I may believe my wife is home, but that is not a belief system, like praying, worship, reading scripture and attending Church each week and believing the big man in the sky is watching over us. Perhaps when I say I believe the sun will rise and my wife is at home I just mean that I really hope that that is the case. John Lennon said it succinctly ‘”God is a concept, by which we can measure, our pain”, and went on to sing that he did not believe in Magic, the I-Ching, the Bible, Tarot, Jesus, Buddha, Mantra or the Bhagavad Gita etc. I am with him on that one. Belief is pernicious to say the least and probably the hardest nut to crack from a Primal viewpoint but maybe Art can confirm if my suspicions are correct on that point.<br /><br />Regards to you all,<br /><br />SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-82903763840144129352011-11-11T16:28:37.460-08:002011-11-11T16:28:37.460-08:00Just a hunch, but I think some people--especially ...Just a hunch, but I think some people--especially people in a heck of a lot of pain--don't develop solid beliefs as a defense. Instead they develop dependency-relationships with people who are the dominant individuals in their lives, where they let those dominant people basically define 'truth' for them. <br /><br />I have had some experience with these (frustrating!) types. They seem to be open minded, and can see reason, but as soon as they move into another social zone with "strong" and "admirable" personalities that just "know what is what", they can't help swallowing themselves up into the dominant personality's ideas. <br /><br />In other words they are in a state where, ultimately, it's up to other "bigger" people to define reality for them - irrespective of the substance of their reasoning that they personally can understand.<br /><br />--It's like those strong politicians and cult leaders. Too many people follow their confidence in itself, unable to see that their confidence is (or may be) just an expression of insanity - or being too stupid to know when they don't know what they're talking about.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-17720401989435767952011-11-11T13:21:09.695-08:002011-11-11T13:21:09.695-08:00Personally, I find Dr Janov's writings about b...Personally, I find Dr Janov's writings about belief systems to be the most fascinating. And I think his discovery that, apparently, the type and especially the tenacity of a belief system is a reflection of an emotional neurosis, is a revolutionary one. Think of all the ideologues , intellectuals, and academics who would freak out if exposed to such a notion! We have such a proliferation of verbiage, and books, and belief systems etc... this whole morass to which I was addicted and drowning in. It took me 30 years to get out of it and now only barely treading the surface and seeing a bit of Light.I am now re-reading his 'Ideas as Opiates' chapter in 'Prisoners of Pain' again with great interest. <br /><br />MarcoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-34155586401302201992011-11-11T11:31:16.335-08:002011-11-11T11:31:16.335-08:00Richard: ayayay you got me. artRichard: ayayay you got me. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-66995684639498766222011-11-11T11:27:58.962-08:002011-11-11T11:27:58.962-08:00Jack: Wait til my book, Beyond Belief comes ou...Jack: Wait til my book, Beyond Belief comes out. Not sure when. artArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-67036504788623516792011-11-11T00:50:23.656-08:002011-11-11T00:50:23.656-08:00“God is a concept by which we measure our pain”. A...“God is a concept by which we measure our pain”. All what I do… measure my pain… pain I try to protect my self’s against… not feeling it because it hearth to much?<br />I am in my pain… a little boy who tries to explain… the little boy I always been… making sense… sense of "hope" to a meaningful recognition... sense as measure my pain. <br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-45233398355597005562011-11-10T16:16:39.449-08:002011-11-10T16:16:39.449-08:00Hi,
-"In our therapy we never just deal wit...Hi,<br /><br /> -"In our therapy we never just deal with strange and bizarre beliefs; we always try to get beneath them and find the driving force"-.<br /><br />But if your therapist is still enmeshed in his/her own 'belief system' and practices, (such as Buddhism, TM, etc etc) then he/she is not really going to get us in to deeper feelings is he/ she?<br /><br />No, I'll answer that. If the belief system started its' "Odyssey" in childhood whilst the 2nd line is still forming its' imprints then the individual will later become pre-disposed to the 'beliefs' of a 'loving' or 'caring' mentor.<br /><br />This way the 'booga booga' therapists maintain their monopoly because they are merely peddling a new version of the old 'commandments'.<br /><br />So acceptable to the sufferer, for a while.<br /><br /><br />Paul G.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02006514330039884557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-68983575675008238532011-11-10T15:58:06.520-08:002011-11-10T15:58:06.520-08:00Art, do you know of any flavourless edible drug th...Art, do you know of any flavourless edible drug that can temporarily induce a deepish emotional experience without significant risk of psychosis or brain damage? Just enough to get a politician interested in feelings. There may be a way to do it, without breaking the law.Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-68347670403172569102011-11-10T14:28:06.261-08:002011-11-10T14:28:06.261-08:00Comments on The Need To Believe
You are of course...Comments on The Need To Believe<br /><br />You are of course right about how pain and hopelessness turn into belief and hope, and that has been my luck. During decades, I was obsessed by a belief that one day I would find a remedy to my epilepsy and my neurotic behaviors, which were propelled by the pain and terror behind my seizures and hallucinations. The hope and belief didn’t change anything. However, they took me through to the next step, which happened, when I optimistically took a tremendous risk with a radical physiotherapy which opened the gates into birth primals, which Primal Therapy made me understand and finally resolve after many years of suffering.<br /><br />So I have to thank evolution for giving us tools like repression and shift of force to counterbalance the unbearable pain. Otherwise I had not been able to come that far that I could understand and conquer my pain / epilepsy / neurosis. The pain filled survival was nothing but a rough kind of escape, and I often survived because I was good at being crazy. Having lived much pain and terror and having experienced how most of my neurotic behavior has evaporated when the pain filled filters no longer affect my body and mind has given me an opportunity to perceive a whole new world. With a somewhat clumsy metaphor, it is, as if I have removed a pair of very dark sunglasses that are cut for a highly shortsighted person, when I needed nothing.<br /><br />Jan JohnssonJan Åke Johnssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15107966321155297159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-82261422219810432002011-11-10T13:03:27.300-08:002011-11-10T13:03:27.300-08:00Art: Belief, is a verb, something we do. The ac...Art: Belief, is a verb, something we do. The act of believing means we don't know. That's ok if the belief is something unimportant; I believe my spouse is already home, but it's the believing in philosophies politics or religions that are the most pervasive and damaging, cos we are insisting in a belief (without acknowledging that it really means "NOT KNOWING") and acting on this belief (going to Church, Temple, Mosque or just meditating the mind into a blank). Act-outs (defenses) for no real reason other than believing (NOT KINOWING). I contend this is one of the silliest words, and seemingly occurs in almost, if not all, languages. In truth, the only thing we can be certain to know is: how we feel ... if we can feel. <br /><br />Most of the other explanations of believing seems, to me, to miss the real point.<br /><br />JackJack Waddingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06427501529242639591noreply@blogger.com