tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post1875578753889308192..comments2024-02-11T18:16:53.445-08:00Comments on Janov's Reflections on the Human Condition: The Simple Truth is Revolutionary: The Conversion ExperienceArthur Janovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16709863014923629409noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-20028198517068313392010-11-16T23:54:14.398-08:002010-11-16T23:54:14.398-08:00Trevor, you are getting what I write backwards. L...Trevor, you are getting what I write backwards. Look in my Primal Healing and Biology of Love about love. OK? art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-40847617654938096842010-11-14T05:31:26.959-08:002010-11-14T05:31:26.959-08:00Hi Art,
This is wonderfull!!
There is one intele...Hi Art, <br /><br />This is wonderfull!!<br />There is one intelectualist here in Serbia who says that there is in every human being property of "homo religiosis". It means that every person have need to believe in something.<br />What do you think about that? Still, we have cortex and thinking mind and abstract mind, we are not without that parts of brain...so we use these parts, and we believe, plan, think, judge risks of something etc...<br />Being religious does not means necessary, believing in god, we can believe in something rational and real:for example: love and hope(which are also used by bible) and theories which our brain suggests to us, which are not necessary irrational, just because we believe, right or wrong?<br /><br />It is better to read and believe and to use Art Janov's work than Bible, because it is advanced in my criterium, realistic, and also can give a hope for better tommorow(if you go to Primal therapy or trying to act normally in harmony with Primal)<br /><br />We dont need super being, faith in that being, someone who will save us in our mind from approaching cataclism...<br />There is mundanely theory, which also good encompassing, right? <br /><br />NenadNenadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09956452085815490924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-41939172255598290892010-11-14T03:30:26.503-08:002010-11-14T03:30:26.503-08:00Here is my (here always relevant) opinion:
A more...Here is my (here always relevant) opinion:<br /><br />A more or less curative ‘primal therapeutic replay’ of a long-previously automatically made ‘recording’ of - or replay of what was in the past ‘conditioned-in’ by - a “traumatizing” or, more precisely put, not just a “specific hibernation (SH) imploring” but SH-inducing combination of milieu factors, can only occur if the 'LTP’ed (Long Termed Potentiated) output of excitatory signals *aspect*' of the totality of the conditioned-in aftermath of such a predicament (or ordeal or adverse challenge of this type) is thereby made (or induced) to undergo highly specific LTP-extinguishing change (plausibly involving the endocannabinoid system) OR, if the primal therapeutically facilitated “replay” leads to that the same “conditioned-in” central neural source of motivation receives highly specific inhibitory feedback from neurons recruited FOR THE FIRST TIME by help of a properly primal-therapeutically provided facilitation of such a most-precise feedback within a “PTSD-plagued” person’s actention selection serving system.<br /><br />The “LTD’ed (Long Term Depressed) aspect” of by traumatic predicaments conditioned-in Pain (primal pain) the ASSS will thereby also tend to ‘wither away’.<br /><br />If someone think they have a better science-aligned hypothesis, please let me (Art and the rest of us who have some sort of penchant for primal therapy) know about it!Pbefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12801125543334132971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-3303890541358988442010-11-11T10:08:17.887-08:002010-11-11T10:08:17.887-08:00DR Janov: My invitation was for your wife to come ...DR Janov: My invitation was for your wife to come and exchange with us here on this blog, not to come and lecture where I live, which is in Quebec, not France. Sorry if I was not clear. But, come to think about it,that might be an interesting project to plan a lecture for her. However, since I am in no professionnal milieu, know no one into Primal in Quebec apart from one person in your network, and know of no other sponsoring organisations here as yet that would be interested in such a lecture,I would have to put that off for the long-term future.<br /><br />One last thing: I alluded , in one of my posts on this thread, to the typical conversion experience that Bill Wilson, a founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, underwent, as a pillar of the AA organisation's approach. Someone pointed out to me that perhaps one key aspect of this otherwise typical conversion was that the drug belladonna , an hallucinogen (I beleive), was administered to him just before his conversion (there were some experiments going on with the drug for alcoholics at that time).Perhaps what happenned to him was more akin to what happens to some of those taking LSD ,than a "pure" conversion experience (or are these experiences perhaps basically the same thing, in the Primal sense?). Bill Wilson, by the way, took some LSD with Aldous Huxley in the early 50's , which threw many in the AA organisation for a loop, considering their drug- abstinence orientation.<br /><br />Marcomacor22https://www.blogger.com/profile/00652948318839690382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-83148694973774793792010-11-11T02:05:59.984-08:002010-11-11T02:05:59.984-08:00"a primal crisis...usually occurs to people w..."a primal crisis...usually occurs to people when they are in enormous pain or on the brink of it. It is really the snapping point and it occurs when the person can no longer defend."<br /><br />And so...what? <br /><br />Is the solution to face the black hole of nothingness and commit suicide? <br /><br />Do you know anyone, really, who lives without hope?<br /><br /> What is hope-less life about? Buddhists monks promoted "detachment" while using children as sex and labor slaves. They also said life was ephemeral while building stone temples decorated in gold. Hypocrites? All too human? What?<br /><br />What if the "despairing" person finds that love is as real as "nothingness"? <br /><br />Why cry if nothing means anything? Are tears just for cleaning our eyes?<br /><br />Whenever I read philosophers/writers who say life has no meaning, I know they've not been loved enough. Only someone who is unloved would try to deny the existence and power of love. All the books in the world can't contain the love in one Granny hug. <br /><br />Maybe that's the problem: A zillion "art" objects can't fill the hole in one's soul caused by the loss of a Rosebud sled.<br /><br />Religions aren't wrong because they espouse hope. They err when they try to prevent congregations from feeling and expressing real feelings. Hope is real because love is real. Trying to deny hope is just another way to try to moderate the pain of needing and not getting. It's an attempt to kill need.<br /><br />If you think life has no meaning you are saying you aren't loved. <br /><br />Even if the "universe" were created by El Retardo (a blind unfeeling block of endless obsidian), so what? We still love and feel and need. <br /><br />If nothing matters, why do children cry when pets die? Why aren't they content being told Fido morphed into inert matter composed of x chemicals?<br /><br />It's not cloth that makes teddy bears important.<br /><br />Primal Therapy runs the risk of becoming too intellectual. It can become as "stuck" as cognitive therapy. I mean, c''mon: Did Immanuel Kant ever get laid? Is soma subservient to psyche? I"m not advocating pure sensualism, just saying over-thinking is no better than sexual compulsion.<br /><br />We hear a lot about dysfunction. What does "healthy" living look like? What is "good enough"? Is PT now the "one and only true way," Art as Jesus-Moses-Mohammed-Buddha-Krishna?<br /><br />Sometimes, when the world is too much with me, I put on Kurt Elling's "The Best Things Happen While You're Dancing" and feel great. Does that mean I'm effed-up? Should I be staring at blank walls, instead, "getting" the futility and pain of life?Trevorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14374461848986737683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-27293065540689733072010-11-11T01:30:52.104-08:002010-11-11T01:30:52.104-08:00Marco: If you want France to come and lecture in F...Marco: If you want France to come and lecture in France you need to get a group of people who can pay just her expenses to get there. There is no salary asked for. AJArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-55522011829616093612010-11-10T14:51:34.099-08:002010-11-10T14:51:34.099-08:00Dear Art,
You are probably aware of this recent a...Dear Art,<br /> You are probably aware of this recent article<br /> www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/health/09brain.html <br />about the role of epigenetics in psychiatric disorders, but just in case I am sending this link. In a few years, much will become known about the effect of early traumas on gene methylation, etc., and the possible reversal by drugs or environmental conditions.Philiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06636260129406682726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-23003573397772119872010-11-10T09:18:29.035-08:002010-11-10T09:18:29.035-08:00Sieglinde: I've often wondered about this &quo...Sieglinde: I've often wondered about this "identity" thing. I don't know if I have one as such, or even want one. <br /><br />Is an identity a reality or a kind of subjective decision? I'm not sure. I notice people don't listen to certain kinds of music (and other) if it doesn't integrate with their 'identity', and that kind of behaviour to me often seems like a kind of unnatural suppression - that is, the identity regulates what we do and do not respond to, and in what kind of way. <br /><br />I'm suspicious that what we recognise as an identity may be (or can be) only a defence in its own right.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-40644131062410817912010-11-10T08:38:59.196-08:002010-11-10T08:38:59.196-08:00Andrew: Your clear explanation sounds plausible to...Andrew: Your clear explanation sounds plausible to me, and confirms what I thought. Our good Dr J. backs your explanation, so my confusion is resolved.<br /><br />Frank: thank you also for your comments.<br /><br />I like what Madame Janov has to say about religion as "institutionlised hope", or "socially approved delusion" as Janov says (aside - Mme Janov, ne pourrait-elle pas venir ici nous parler parfois?). No wonder these delusions of a sick society had always confused me and enraged me! My only quibble with her use of the word hope, and the way Dr Janov usually uses it in his writings, is that this so-called "hope" is a false hope, a compensatory drug-like "hope", perhaps to be very clearly distinguished from the true hope of the more open human being that has faced, to a certain extent, his unconscious despair, Pain, or whatever you want to call it.<br /><br />Nenad also makes the important point that almost all human cultures seem to have these religions, which begs the question as to why human beings seem to be so sick on the whole.I often ponder that question. There is perhaps another distinction , though, that needs to be made between the religions of so-called "civilised" people like in our Western civilsation, and the religions of "primitive" peoples which seem to be on the whole more "pantheistic". Reich though that the dynamics of these latter where different from "civilised" religions and wrote about this in one of his books. He was very influenced by an anthropologist named Malinowski, while the Freudians at the time had their pet anthropologist, Geza Roheim (?), who used Freud's theories to "analyse" these "primitive" cultures. But I don't know enough about anthropology , and this aspect of Reich's work, to say more than that.<br /><br />Marcomacor22https://www.blogger.com/profile/00652948318839690382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-6394211209296039982010-11-10T01:54:34.260-08:002010-11-10T01:54:34.260-08:00Marco
Just by daily terns touch feelings... feeli...Marco<br /><br />Just by daily terns touch feelings... feelings of pain... it will do a difference in the way I look at things… not least my courage changes. Feelings of fear in memory of hopelessness… sort of blurs my daily feelings… feelings of shyness etc… but it also makes coloring sharper. This remembers me of what Art ones said “you don’t need drugs to live… you need drugs because you don’t live.<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-58719120885361431342010-11-09T23:53:33.107-08:002010-11-09T23:53:33.107-08:00Marco
If and when you start with primal therapy… ...Marco<br /><br />If and when you start with primal therapy… you will understand the parable between primal therapy ... god and drugs. The pain is what will make you understand the difference...god and drugs provides an instant "gratification" that will not primal therapy.<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242354226308728116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-82428115705607479002010-11-09T17:06:49.594-08:002010-11-09T17:06:49.594-08:00Don't trust Janov? My cousin Marion had wild ...Don't trust Janov? My cousin Marion had wild suspicions until she saw Janov talking on a TV show. She said "You know what, Richard? He was actually sooo cool". <br />She admired his ability to speak in such a normal and effortless way. Marion is always very interested in personalities. She still shows little interest in life-saving information (because I try to force the information down her throat).<br />During the TV show, her previous thoughts of "freaky cult leader" were instantly destroyed. Now she listens more to her own feelings (sometimes I wish she wouldn't), instead of all the people who try to convince her that Primal Therapy is crap (none of those people have read anything on Primal Therapy).<br />Marion is waiting for me to do it first before she makes a decision. that's quite a leap from "freaky cult leader". I think videos have the ability to tap into a person's intuition. That's why I am looking forward to the primal documentary (no hurry) so I can show it to a few special people. I MUST convert them.Richard Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13587935146938446604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-44906196748063190402010-11-09T16:46:38.502-08:002010-11-09T16:46:38.502-08:00May I comment:
Religion is co-dependency indoctrin...May I comment:<br />Religion is co-dependency indoctrinated - for traumatized people with no identity. <br />Another form of delusional disorder ICD 10: F22.0 or 297.1 <br />SieglindeS. W. Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12087227301358286386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-20696577253084446632010-11-09T12:55:16.492-08:002010-11-09T12:55:16.492-08:00Andrew: YEP AJAndrew: YEP AJArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-14044158180007907572010-11-09T12:54:06.385-08:002010-11-09T12:54:06.385-08:00Jerry:
thanks. I am on it. AJJerry: <br />thanks. I am on it. AJArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-56351212120633149652010-11-09T12:53:21.867-08:002010-11-09T12:53:21.867-08:00Nenad: France says it is institutionalized hope. ...Nenad: France says it is institutionalized hope. Or as I say, it is socially approved delusion. AJArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-37273124248342142682010-11-09T09:16:00.956-08:002010-11-09T09:16:00.956-08:00Hi everybody,
Religion is legally paranoid, not ...Hi everybody, <br /><br />Religion is legally paranoid, not condemned by society, yet desirable in every almost culture in the world?<br />Do I have opponent in this statement?<br /><br />NenadNenadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09956452085815490924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-79172206854074939212010-11-09T01:43:46.638-08:002010-11-09T01:43:46.638-08:00Marco,
Not to suggest I'm brilliant, but I...Marco,<br /><br />Not to suggest I'm brilliant, but I'll have a go with your question...<br /><br />I think you had it right with the LSD thing (Bad trip from LSD = chemically induced psychotic episode? I think that would be right). <br /><br />The individual in a "conversion experience" can't cope (their defences are seriously breaking down) and is getting too close to severe early trauma/s that they are [not yet] able to integrate. This leaves the defence system with no choice but to heavily symbolise (just like in a psychotic episode). The symbolism is ultimately the brains way of dissociating consciousness from the direct experience of the repressed pain. The conversion experience a serious compromise because the individual is forced to become even more divorced from reality, but it can be a necessary 'emergency' compromise so it happens anyway. <br /><br />If the subject were in fact able to integrate their pain then they would indeed probably Primal. That's all primal is - approaching pains that you are ready to integrate, and therefore will. <br /><br />I would guess that Art would say that conversion experiences are what happens when you 'buck evolution' - that is, confront serious pains before you're ready to.Andrew D Atkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04492591375757227409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-11095704972484701902010-11-09T00:21:52.866-08:002010-11-09T00:21:52.866-08:00Sabina. that is indeed a small problem. art janov...Sabina. that is indeed a small problem. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-54001875719042642572010-11-09T00:19:53.755-08:002010-11-09T00:19:53.755-08:00Sieglinde: always wonderful comments. art janov...Sieglinde: always wonderful comments. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-74144445018096657612010-11-09T00:18:43.392-08:002010-11-09T00:18:43.392-08:00Nenad: Well thank you. If my work helps it is all ...Nenad: Well thank you. If my work helps it is all I ask. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-27283482808602598082010-11-09T00:14:20.112-08:002010-11-09T00:14:20.112-08:00Brian. I think you will find that most of those...Brian. I think you will find that most of those people went to mock therapists and thought they were experiencing primal. Not often the case. art janovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-36522710367406529992010-11-09T00:12:41.114-08:002010-11-09T00:12:41.114-08:00Marco: I could answer but for now I will leave it ...Marco: I could answer but for now I will leave it to the brilliant readers to provide answers. AJArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-14195179470305500552010-11-09T00:11:25.626-08:002010-11-09T00:11:25.626-08:00Marco: I will write more on this soon. AJMarco: I will write more on this soon. AJArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3420173096635836108.post-49654768553318472592010-11-09T00:10:41.747-08:002010-11-09T00:10:41.747-08:00Frank: All I can do is write and think. I leave i...Frank: All I can do is write and think. I leave it to all of you to promote. Art JanovArthur Janovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009571728800026496noreply@blogger.com